Comment by ericmay
1 day ago
> The problem (right now) is that Open Weight models depend right now on huge companies to spend billion of dollars to train and develop them, all backed up by their incentives and their state to support this, while essentially giving away their monetization path.
Right... and there are two problems with this:
1. Eventually the capabilities of closed-weight models will just vastly outstrip open-weight models if the underlying assumptions about compute and scale needed are mostly on the mark. So you can release open-weight models and they will have great use cases and applications, but ultimately similar to how you don't use an open-source phone or a budget Android phone from Wal-Mart and you buy an iPhone instead, you will see that although they "do the same thing" one product is clearly superior and you just have to pay for it. For this to not be true...
2. then it incentivizes most (all?) companies, American, Chinese, or European to halt development of models because if you spend all the CAPEX and it can just be copied and turned open-source nobody will invest in that. Given that China is not halting development of proprietary models I believe the current strategy and the subsequent approach to release open-weight models is at best a stall tactic, and at worse a sign of desperation.
Open source and the support and development models around it have been great. But folks are a little too dogmatic about it. Open-source software isn't a moral good, and closed-source software isn't a moral wrong either.
Imagine there’s a school where all the kids there are being tutored by the best. Also imagine a bunch of neighboring schools drastically falling behind that would need insane amounts of money to keep up.
This becomes a problem because all the kids from the rich school will dominate the order schools. They’ll get even more money as time goes on from their kids paying it forward to the point where all other kids are bound to work for them.
Now let’s say one other school does have the money for best tutors, BUT they know they’ll run out pretty quickly. Instead of trying to compete in a losing game, they decide to give every school in the world access to their elite lesson plan. Now, for a time, everyone will be on close to a level playing field. If the other schools improve upon their own lesson plans and keep sharing them with others, one day the elite school will wake up to find they are no longer on top. The parents have started to move their kids to other schools because the rich school is no longer attractive at the high cost they charge students
Sure and to complete your analogy here, the rich schools realize that the curriculum they develop and put a lot of time and money into creating is just used by the cheap schools, so they stop developing it because nobody loses money for long and so neither the rich or cheap schools develop any new curriculum.
Now what?
The fundamental problem here is incentives and tactics. Either the models are actually better (which I think the iPhone to cheap Android phone really speaks to, i.e. they do the same thing but one is 50x better at 5x-10x the cost) and thus they can be gate kept and like the iPhone the vast majority of profits go to a select few with high end implementations. OR the models aren't actually that much better, companies lose a fortune and then nobody can create any better commercial models or build out scale needed for open source models because it's not profitable.
We could wind up with only open-source models or something along those lines, but if the compute and scale is needed to train the models, nobody will be able to do that profitably and so AI research is either gate kept and silo'd for something like military applications or it just doesn't really happen because there's no funding for this scale of build out.
Try selecting a file in your 50x iphone - triple copy of the same file or ateast double copy (assuming os will post a soft link). If a large file then you are toast.
Try mmapping > 5GB file in your 50x better iPhone.
Try running any service in the background.
The list goes on and on.
Your 50x better suddenly became 50x worse compared to a much cheaper android.
iphone is 50x better? because you get a blue box around your text rather than green?
androids and iphones are approximately the same thing
the kinda obvious direction LLM training can go is into the direction of particle physics, and the training is set up democratically and through universities and via multi-state funding
then the resulting weights end up open, the same as the particle detection data
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> so they stop developing it because nobody loses money for long and so neither the rich or cheap schools develop any new curriculum
Why do you assume the poor schools wouldn't be smart enough to keep it going? It's very likely the can collectively beat the rich school now that the one other rich school opened access to their materials and led the charge.
> but if the compute and scale is needed to train the models, nobody will be able to do that profitably
But they would. Efficiently hosting models will be the real business and early access to models with incremental improvements will not be the moat once thought. The reason other companies don't feel they can compete is the same reason OAI and Anthropic will lose their lead. They banked too heavily on another player NOT leading the charge on open research and poured disgusting amounts of money at closed source models.
China has proved they can take the limited resources available to them and build something better than what the US is offering consumers [1]. I'm just waiting for other countries to start pitching in.
Reminds me of the NSA and their early battles with cryptographers who believed in open research.
[1] https://x.com/DavidSacks/status/2078984980588531855
Software being open source has many strong positive externalities. It advances human knowledge and freedom. If you don't think that counts as a moral good then I'm baffled by what you think a moral good is.
It depends on how it is applied. You can release open source software that advances knowledge and freedom that results in economic destruction or the loss of life, for example.
Open source is in the tradition of humans sharing past knowledge, long-term we just can’t keep a secret it’s a time, honored tradition…
> Open-source software isn't a moral good
Yes it is.
is open-source malware a moral good?
Prove it
I’ll take a swing at it. Open Source is a form of sharing with the wider community. Closed Source is not sharing. Moral good is based on doing good outside of your own benefit (the opposite of selfishness.)
Ergo it’s a kind of moral good.
And I’m not even an advocate for open source.
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Justify your assertion and let people disprove it
No u
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It's important also that open-weight isn't open source. If you can't download the training data (fully labeled), source code of the NN, and follow the README to build and train it yourself assuming oyu had the hardware then it's not open source.
tldr there's no "source" in open weight models therefore they are not open source.
Exactly. AFAIK none of the popular "open Chinese" models have published the full pre- and post-training pipeline, so the models are only partially open, if at all (plus the openly shared final weights, of course).
Did you just assume the singularity?
No