Comment by otterley
2 days ago
> From a factual perspective, I honestly think that shouldn’t be controversial: it’s well-understood that very few people actually read those things, they just want to get them out of the way
There’s no way this would fly. “I didn’t read it” can’t possibly be an excuse to avoid being bound by an agreement. Every party to an agreement that flaunted its terms, even though they took advantage of the benefits granted by it, would invoke it as a defense, and it’s irrefutable. The system would completely fall apart if this happened.
There’s a balance that needs to be carefully managed here. Yes, fairness to consumers is important. But you can’t destroy the incentive to produce value in so doing.
> “I didn’t read it” can’t possibly be an excuse to avoid being bound by an agreement
Only engineers have trouble understanding this. It can be a reasonable defense, and it has successfully been used in courts of law many times. The law is not a machine that compiles text like code literally. Imagine someone who coerces a dying or sick person to sign an agreement they couldn’t possibly be in a reasonable state of mind to understand what they were doing -- the law can and does invalidate such “contracts”. That is the same principle behind age of consent laws. The law could theorerically (and does) invalidate “agreements” which no one is reasonably expected to read and understand.
I am an attorney, and am aware of certain exceptions. But these are exceptions and not the general rule, which is what I am speaking of.
> The law could theorerically (and does) invalidate “agreements” which no one is reasonably expected to read and understand.
I haven’t heard of a single case where an agreement was voided because “no one could reasonably be expected to understand it.” Unless the language was so impenetrable or vague that the agreement itself could not be discerned. Lawyers tend not to write such agreements.
EULAs are restricted in power in EU and at least to me these cookie banners are similar in spirit.
"I didn't read it," sure. But, "A reasonable person would not read it?"
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But it is complicated, no? Even if you click you agree, if the you thought you were agreeing to one thing but actually agreed to another because they buried the lede, “I didn’t read it” is a reasonable defense.
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It can and has been in many cases in many legal systems. For example, let’s say you walk into my store to buy a dish washer. I say ”here is an extended warranty that I will give you. Just sign” you sign it instead of reading 15 pages of boilerplate. In the end of the document it says you now owe me 10 billion dollars. Doubt I will be able to enforce it in most legal systems.
That’s not an “I didn’t read it” defense. That’s a “term is this contract is unconscionable” defense. They’re not the same thing. I was speaking strictly of the former.
Also, striking an unconscionable term typically does not void the whole contract. Just the term in question.
As a general rule I believe many online terms of use, eulas and similar online contracts are examples of procedural unconscionability, in that length is often too long that one can be expected to read it in the day to day action of "surfing the web", I believe this is also the opinion of the EU and many of its member states, hence the limitations found on enforcement of such contracts.
Aside from that many of these contract have terms that might be considered substantive unconscionability - for example if terms state that what you post can be used by the company that owns the service for marketing of the company or the service I feel this would not make it through most legal systems that I feel before the attempt are not inherently corrupt.
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No, it is literally ”I didn’t read the contract”. Let me guess you don’t have a law degree in Swedish law and you are just making statements on every legal system in the whole world?
Just read avtalslagen paragraf 30. It says just that. And it is different from paragraf 36.
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All of these cookie forms have the same set of toggles. At a high level all anyone is saying is that we should just declare any kind of tracking cookies unconscionable terms for this kind of dialog box. Caching, shopping carts, explicit log in, these are totally fine and you don't need a dialog. The tracking stuff is not that hard to define and it should just be declared unconscionable.
That's why billionaires don't buy their own dishwashers
This is bullshit.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/disney-says-man-cant-su...
"Disney is trying to have a widower's wrongful death lawsuit dismissed and sent to arbitration because the man had signed up for a Disney+ account several years ago."
Now what happened was that Disney quit fighting over really bad PR. But the court challenge would have liteky succeeded.
You get that US is a tiny part of the worlds entire legal systems right? Just because US is messed up doesn’t mean the rest of the world is. Most people don’t live in US.
What's bullshit? You mean to say the dishwasher buyer would legally be on the hook for billions?
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That argument has actually worked in some cases, especially when you need to click away to actually access the document. I assume it's why we see more and more examples where you need to scroll the full body of text in order to "agree".
Of you need a nonstandard contract then you need to provide proof that it was understood. These are not provided in a context where I would expect anyone reading it to have a lawyer to advise so they obviously don't understand it
By that same logic, do you believe ignorance of the law is a valid defense to a criminal charge? Laws are also written by lawyers.
No, but I do believe that if the jury doesn't find it was obviously a crime without any being told the law then it wasn't a crime. That is the text of the law isn't important until guilty is decided. (So the jury can decide degree if that is a question for the jury, otherwise the judge needs to know for sentencing but the jury doesn't care)
> There’s a balance that needs to be carefully managed here. Yes, fairness to consumers is important. But you can’t destroy the incentive to produce value in so doing.
The value is derived from the people consuming the product. Placing the "incentive to produce value" above the people who presumably are the source of this value seems...misaligned.
If there’s no product or service to be consumed, there’s no value produced either. That’s the point: it’s harmful to eliminate the incentive to produce.
People will _always_ need things. There are very few things that will eliminate people's need for things and producers will of course adapt to the environment.
What we need is an environment that does not give the producers asymmetric power over consumers and the products will naturally align with that.
What if only the incentive to produce bad things is eliminated
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I don’t see how we could possibly prove that the person who clicked “I agree” is still the person using the computer.
Or that any actual human is aware that an agreement was made (since an AI can find a checkbox nowadays or software can be configured to bypass it). One way to add balance could be to require people asking for contracts to actually treat them like real serious legal documents, show up for the signing, and figure out who they are making an agreement with.
That doesn’t matter. If you authorize an agent—human or mechanical—to enter into agreements on your behalf (even by mistake), and the agent presents itself as operating on your behalf, the agent’s decisions will be treated as though they were your own.
Prinicipal-agent law predates computers by a very long time.
What if an IT guy installs one of those “cookie banner be gone” extensions without the user’s permission?
But "its specifically engineered to ensure that nobody reads it" is a real argument
Where has this ever been adjudicated?