Comment by twelvechairs
1 month ago
Also everything hes saying about China (and other actors) many outside the USA would say about the USA.
The solution of a global arms race of state vs state with integrated statist corporations as the best outcome for end users sure is a choice though
He's also completely missed what many of us see as the primary the issue, HF was attacked by a US frontier model.
HF could not be helped by US frontier models because of the "safety" features they have.
HF had to use an open model from china.
Anthropic wants to add those "safety" features to open models - especially from china.
End result would be HF hack would have continued atleast until the Monday that OpenAI engineers finally walked back into work.
I'm very confident that it was staged and coordinated. This propaganda started because they cannot evolve their models further. See Fable and Sol, they are lame. They seem incredible at first but the more you use you can see the trickery. It is a matter of time for someone to prove they are marginally better only because they inject more information to the harness at server side.
I’m also into this conspiracy theory: ai created bug, ai hacked it, ai fixed it.
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Everything in this space is manufactured, the plebs is fed very deliberate information for manipulation. I don't think there is a debate about it. All the PR stuff is marketing.
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I case you're wondering, HF = Hugging Face
Every time I read Hugging Face, my brain first jumps to facehugger from Alien. I really wish they chose a different name...
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Worth checking, elsewhere in this thread someone points out glm only assessed the damage after the fact, it didn't stop the attack, and Hf apprently never sought access to a trusted defender program with a closed model either the open model saved them farming might not hold up.
They wrote themselves that before the incident they were denied from the trust program...
I think the fair nuance here is, an administration which used Executive Orders to force guardrails, meaning US companies must retain them, even if they might want to drop them now.
And on top of that, with low/no guardrails, people call you a child pornographer(grok), so the public is also against it. Yet mysteriously few complain about Chinese open models being child pornographers.
So even if your goal isn't ethical, but just fiscal, it's reasonable to say there are two standards. And to complaint in some way.
I don't think banning is going to work, that's just silly. And over the next few years, everyone and their dog will have local GPU compute to train locally. People have home labs, the bar isn't that high, and eventually large text datasets will escape from Anthropic and other companies, allowing for comparable training.
It's a genie that's not going back in the bottle, the bottle is smashed.
The only reasonable outcome would be section 230 style carveouts so that there is zero liability for anything a model does.
Because having guardrails on corporate models barely months ahead of open ones, which will never be restricted, is entirely pointless.
>child pornographer(grok)
People call grok that because deviants were abusing grok's ability to edit images and post them publicly on X to strip people - including children - of their clothes, from their public photos. Then when there was backlash, Elon laughed it off. It took half the world opening investigations against X for violations of existing regulations for action to be taken.
The leniency that internet companies get in terms of dealing with illegal content comes with the expectation that they're making reasonable efforts to control the distribution of said content. X, and Grok, were actively supporting the production and distribution of the content in public.
It is very different from someone creating such images in a private account, and definitely very different from someone using a local model to do it.
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The "child pornography" thing was about image generation, which people for better or worse have very different moral standards for than for text generation. There is very little pushback against grok being willing to write explicit descriptions of sex, or giving security advise.
Though I think your overall point still stands, and at least Grok's twitter bot has received a lot of criticism for pure text too (Mecha hitler comes to mind)
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> And over the next few years, everyone and their dog will have local GPU compute to train locally. People have home labs, the bar isn't that high, and eventually large text datasets will escape from Anthropic and other companies, allowing for comparable training.
You're vastly underestimating the scaling problem here.
Things that would need to be true for your statement to be valid:
> child pornographer(grok)
Further reading: XAI Bets on Grok's Racy Side, The Information, Jun 24, 2026
&: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2026/07/xai-cant-deny-gr...
Well... They are all part of a "high well regarded" group of people of a security committee that has no specialists or whatsoever, only trillionaires on a round table
All my adult life, China has given me cheap material goods. Whatever they do in their country is their own problem. They’ve never interfered in my politics or started any wars
> They’ve never interfered in my politics or started any wars
But they have. I dont know what specific country you are referring to but China has interfered with US elections as well as Canada, Taiwan, and Australia in addition to many many others.
They’ve annexed Tibet (1950), fought India (1962) and Vietnam (1979) among others and more recently in 2020 a deadly skirmish with India. They’ve generally shifted their focus to cyber military actions but you’d have to be pretty naive they won’t start to exercise military control over Taiwan when/if they get a chance.
Now compare that to what the USA did in the same time frame. Pay special attention to people killed (either directly, or indirectly) outside of their own borders. Who should you be worried about?
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The Indian wars were border skirmishes at most. Literally 2,000 soldiers dead on both sides combined by official count. Very few civilian casualties.
The 2020 skirmish was way smaller with single digit casualties. Again, almost no civilian casualties because it's a largely empty region in the first place
You really can't compare this to the kind of wars America has started. Casualties - both civilian and military - stood in the hundreds of thousands
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If you're making a case of this vs what the US has interfered with, it simply does not stack up. Of course it's naive to think they won't start interfering like the US once they gain the leverage, but to a neutral party it likely doesn't matter which of these two ends up as the superpower on the global stage.
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Tibet was part of China since the Quing dynasty in the 17th century, it briefly declared independence during the chaos of the Chinese civil wars, but it was never recognised.
Vietnam is usually recognised as a low point in Chinese history.
There's been an ongoing border dispute between China and India for over 100 years, thanks to some questionable line drawing by the British.
Also, referring to the parent comment, of these only the border skirmish with India was within my lifetime.
in contrast this is USA's main job is to Interfere in any country it can in favor of its own goals. not related to what the people of that state really want.
north Americans must stay silent about interfering in other states internal issues.
No new wars in 47 years is a pretty good run vs other major powers.
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What people don't know is that China's "war" against Vietnam in 1979 was actually a pledge of allegiance to the United States, a way of demonstrating its stance.
This event was followed by the longest honeymoon period in Sino-US relations, which eventually lead to China's rise.
"But Tibet!!!" has to be the most intellectually lazy pro-American imperialism argument, particularly when you consider the US history of regime change [1]. Heck, this unwinnable war we're fighting in Iran has a direct through line to not one but two such incidents, specifically the coup in 1953 and US involvement in the Islamic Revolution in 1979 (ie making sure the fundamentalists won instead of the communists). And weirdly a significant number of these puppets end up turning into enemies and far worse problems (eg Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden).
Tibet specifically is funny because one of the things China did was end slavery in Tibet [2]. A large percentage of the population were "serfs" but that was a generous translation because these "serfs" could be traded. You know, like property. Like slaves.
And Vietnam? They had a small border dispute. What did the US do to Vietnam? And Cambodia? And Laos?
But the funniest claim of all here is election interference. The foreign interference in US elections conversation begins and ends with Israel with an honorable mention to Russia for running some Facebook ads. Just last night we had a debate in the Democratic primary for Senate in Michigan, a race that AIPAC proxies (eg UDP) have spent upwards of $60 million. On a primary.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet_serfdom_controversy
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They have colonies and generally aspire to become basically the old british empire as a longterm strategy? At least thats what they push with that "century of humiliation" comeback strategy internally..
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Did anything else happen in Vietnam in the 70s?
That is nothing compared to the us
> China has interfered with US elections
Wow, that newest of Trump's distraction talking points made it surprisingly quickly to the uncontended (?) and commonly accepted facts in HN conversations.
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I'm surprised to see that this hasn't received enough downvotes to be grayed out. It seems those who can downvote on HN mostly believe this BS
> China has interfered with US elections
Wow. I bet we'll soon be reading on HN that Biden stole the elections back in 2020.
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At this point with how volatile US is I'd rather have China control Taiwan than US.
And this comment isn't about putting any good light on China. Lately US acts like they want to compensate for Russia fucking up less things around the world
> Whatever they do in their country is their own problem.
Idk to me it feels like human compassion and ethics dictates that you at least have to care a bit even about the things in other countries. Otherwise all sorts of horrible domestic policies would be justifiable.
Star Fleet first directive has been proven right many times.
That's a very selfish way to think of it. Whatever they do in their country does not stay in their country because China is becoming a superpower so you should expect it (as it's normal) to interfere and affect policy abroad.
For example Lithuania has been punished for letting Taiwan opening an embassy (in Lithuania). So China cares what other countries do in their country. Without EU support Lithuania could have faced very harsh consequences. That's just an example. Another example is the "secret police" stations undeclared overseas police stations operated by China in various countries (i.e. U.S for example). China gave you cheap material goods because that was its business but you have to keep in mind it's an authoritarian, communist regime. It carries an extra risk on top of the potential economic coercion if you give it too power. At least you know that U.S is only after the money and does not want to turn your country in a communist "utopia".
That being said this does not mean we should ban Chinese AI models because China didn't cross any red lines(yet) compared with Russia for example.
"U.S is only after the money and does not want to turn your country in a communist "utopia""
Not mutually exclusive, just take a look at Venezuela.
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For you personally no, but there's plenty of scandals of politicians being influenced by the Chinese, case in point in my own country: https://www.ft.com/content/601df41f-8393-46ad-9f74-fe64f8ea1...
Don't be naive or I might even think you're working for the Chinese :-)
But they're happily selling drone parts to Russians dropping bombs on civilians (or "whatever").
In fact, they are also selling drones to Ukraine.
Yes and the USA trained and gave weapons to the Taliban and many other terror organizations. "China sold none weapons to another country" really pales in comparison.
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I wish I could be this blissfully naive.
China is becoming an intellectual powerhouse in addition to a manufacturing powerhouse and runs huge spyware and propaganda campaigns.
Read up about T95, MBOX, TVBOX, or other Android TV Boxes advertised as generic TV streaming devices advertised as "unlocked" or capable of accessing free content. They're loaded with spyware/malware, typically BADBOX. Some of them will record audio and record your network traffic and send it to China.
I'm also convinced that the anti-education thread winding its way through US culture is being amplified by China. They likely didn't start it, as it's been growing for decades, but China will happily keep it going.
What country do you live in? Nevermind it doesn’t matter because literally every country has had their politics interfered with.
I mean them selling the cheap material goods is politics, and they use that a lot to threaten other countries. They constantly bully neighbors and assert claims on foreign terriroty. They might not be the comic book villians people are making them out to be but your take is just ignorant
Such horrible villains, threatening the world with cheap stuff!
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Oh i bet they have not directly interfered with your politics, but they do interfer a lots in various things. More than any other country on this planet? I don't know. China is big. Really really big.
> They’ve never interfered in my politics or started any wars
They actively back russia and deliver them weapons and support them with their attempted Genocide in Ukraine. They also actively threaten Taiwan.
Not to mention them claiming almost the entire South China Sea even though this being against international law and threatening smaller nations into submitting to them
I personally think it’s bad when countries commit genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_Chin...
Do you remember covid and where it come from?
A disease can come from anywhere
Unless you're trying to imply that China engineered the whole thing - extraordinary claim that will require extraordinary evidence
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Tulsi said US operates lot of biolabs outside US so as to avoid US regulations.
Yes, I remember: "Vector" BSL4 Lab, Novosibirsk, Russian Federation, Sep 16 2019. Fire blast, then unequipped military first responders which stole lab equipment, then joint military training with Wuhan military police few weeks later.
China was the first victim of the Russian virus.
Lol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_warrior_diplomacy
They have their own genocide in western china
According to the U.S. State Department, they literally do not:
https://law.stanford.edu/press/state-department-lawyers-conc...
That whole thing was a very successful propaganda campaign, making people believing China has been mass murdering Uyghurs.
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We don’t have to guess. Here is a recent survey:
People in Many Countries Now View China More Positively Than the U.S.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2026/07/15/people-in-many...
> Also everything hes saying about China (and other actors) many outside the USA would say about the USA.
yes he is writing it as usa citizen running it a us company.
I dont see how "usa is also.." is relevant here.
Are you saying the USA is somehow as repressive as china?
As someone who has never visited China or the US; yes. Why? Media. School shootings, ICE, crazy president… What do I see from China? Impressive multi-million cities… and true to be told, not much.
China had a worse reputation, but not anymore since Trump leads the US.
Im not saying that the above is objective, tho
School shootings aren't carried out by the government. Crazy president democratically elected and criticised by a free press. Things that you don't like about a country are a lot different than things that will get you and your family disappeared by your government.
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Probably more.
Yes, only if measured by their own people.
Trump deports, half of the USA people screamed; Xin builds reeducation camps, most Chinese people are cool.
More repressive, by real statistics.
>Also everything hes saying about China (and other actors) many outside the USA would say about the USA.
Yes, I for sure trust the open models from China, more than anything coming out of the USA at the moment.
Its not just the USA's support for genocidal regimes, nor its heinously illegal wars and atrocious 21st century human rights record. Its also the Snowden revelations and the treatment of Julian Assange.
Slowly, surely, the world is building a firewall against the USA's imperialist actions - not just its motives. That AI is a key building block of that machination is of course, highly exciting.
There are many in Europe who feel the same. The tide is very definitely turning.
His Concern 1 was especially painful to read. It reminds me of Red Fever rhetorics from McCarthy era. He casually mentions CCP and People’s Liberation Army (dogwhistles?) as the most fearful enemy. But he didn’t compare CCP policies to GOP or Trump administration (apple to apple comparison). He doesn’t frame it as Anthropic vs Moonshot competition either. He deliberately frames it as the US vs the Communists war.
He portrays the biggest ever threat of AI as the Chinese Military using the models in their drones. He already sells his models to military customers, US and potentially allies, and they are actively used in the field.
So no objective argumentation here. Just Nationalist political rhetorics and FUD. He’s allowed to do that and he will have an audience. But he won’t be taken seriously outside the US. He appears blindsided.
Why is it relevant what those outside would say about the US? Or what those outside of any country would say about any country. The job of a country is to do what is best for it. It's better for the US to not help China develop AI that surpasses its own capabilities. It's better for China to try anyway. There are many countries inventing nothing with loud opinions. Those opinions are completely irrelevant to China or the US.
> The job of a country is to do what is best for it.
Countries aren't defined like corporations in the US. Why would countries have funds to help places like Haiti otherwise?
Lots of different reasons for countries to do all sorts of things? Why would France have armed the US during their independence movement? Why is the rest of the world supporting Ukraine during this war started by Russia?
You mean to say that without France’s help the “revolutionary war” would just be an embarrassing string of failures and a footnote in Britain’s history?
Oh no, you heretic, The People freed themselves and it was ordained by God, you see. It is through the righteous might of The Greatest Experiment in The History of the World that they showed The World what Freedom really meant.
Having the British lose the US was a good thing for France, simillarly preventing Russia from just taking over another country is for the best of other countries.
While there is no "job" of a country, it is natural that each one will work for its own best interest and any moves it makes in the global world is due to their own vested interests in some way including helping Haiti, France helpong Us and the world supporting Ukraine.
Why would a country act against its interest or just randomly? Alliances and corporation are a part of politics
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> Why would countries have funds to help places like Haiti otherwise?
because that's what they think is best. what point are you trying to make? that countries don't pursue 'profit' at the expense of all other concerns?
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Why does it feel like you think you're talking to only people in the US?
There's plenty of people on this forum that aren't American. Including some former allies whose sovereignty has been aggressively threatened. And some of those people are Anthropic customers.
Even more so, many of us are in countries that would be well within the blast radius of fallout should the US try to "ban" open weight models or make moves to limit "US" models (often developed on research or work by non-Americans too, but that's another topic) only to those blessed by the US gov't.
That's why it matters?
Not just customers, Anthropic has offices in multiple countries around the world. And hires people from all around the world
Why should the national security concerns of the US lie with Anthropic?