Comment by anthonypasq
8 hours ago
Personally I think Apple should have acquired them. if you could burn a gemma4 class model into an iphone and actually get extremely low latency and low battery usage it would feel like the future IMO. even if it means you wont get frontier intelligence, there might actually be incentive to buy a new mobile device every year again.
The Taalas chips are not physically small. And part of their secret (if you look at the design) is just locating a bunch of memory soldered on the edges ( I belive higher amounts of SRAM ? )
Baking the base models on to ROM makes a lot of economic sense. SRAM for the KV cache & fine-tunes, not so much. Sure you’d get incredible speeds but it’s not scalable from a die-size or cost perspective.
Rather base model on ROM + KV cache on DRAM is much more scalable. Also this would work great for edge devices that have a 2-5 year lifecycle.
Baking the base models on to ROM makes a lot of economic sense.
Less so for consumers though, because it'd mean the phone is out of date in 3 months when a better model comes along.
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It is my understanding that just baking the model itself into silicon only gives moderate gains because memory bandwidth remains a bottleneck.
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Their PoC chips are big, but then it's ridiculously fast (have you seen chatjimmy.ai?). Also they must be holding a bunch of patents.
Its a cool demo, but its gpt-3.5 level stupid, or worse.
edit: Ok, I will self-apologize. Its apparently a 3B model. Mighty impressive for what it does.
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I don't think this works out from a cost/silicon perspective. Small models already run pretty well in software (since the weights fit in cache) and big models require silicon area proportional to the size of weights. On a mobile device putting a chip like this is competing directly in BOM and power against a whole lot more l3 cache, and the l3 cache makes everything faster
What, even if it means you can run models without relying on the currently backlogged DRAM production?
The size of model we're talking about running doesn't need much if any dram.
My question is what changes about LLM use cases when you’re getting 1000 tok/s? Models in silicon might dramatically change how we think about them.
Did you use chatjimmy? It's somewhat terrifying to use when you think of the potential results with a better model.
Ok, real life example: I now spend most of my time, as a developer, waiting for the agent to do its thing (after careful prompting, I'm also thinking about work stuff, don't worry I'm not useless). What if it gave back the same excellent results, but instantaneously? Why, then, I certainly would become the bottleneck. So, quite possibly, my last work task would be to plug this agent directly into the ticket system where the domain experts input their feature requests. Maybe we still need 1 developer out of 100, to coordinate releases and all that (ok, say 1 out of 10).
But that's not taking things far enough: why do we need these domain experts at all? Our pitch is clear, and all software-enabled, though it took years to develop. We can just have the clients express their concerns to the AI, directly or indirectly. Have multiple lighting-fast agents with different roles (refactoring agent, new features agent, debugger agent, domain expert agent, etc.). So we fire everyone, maybe keep 1 product owner / devops to keep the trolls out. The cost is still probably 100 times less than it used to be (beyond the initial cost of acquisition of the magic machine or whatever).
But one of these clients, surely, will realize that these 10 years of manual and slowly-automated development can now be emulated in very, very little time. Why not just, say, take screenshots of the entire app and feed them into the magic machine? Why, this way, they could have the service for a tenth of the yearly cost, forever!
And then the economy implodes.
I'm not saying it's THE most likely version of things, I'm saying that at a certain level, quantity (or rather, speed) is a quality all its own. And this new quality might change the world. Let's hope it's for the better!
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In the case on on-device/self-hosted LLMs. You ask your agent to implement xyz feature 10 times and use a model to compare the outputs and combine the best results.
Raw intelligence becomes slightly less important when you can iterate and improve automatically. You can still claim it was "one shot" even when 30 different implementations were made then combined.
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The best way I can explain it is that it's the same feeling when I upgraded from 56k dialup to cable broadband.
That likely isn't as relevant for on-device iPhone usage as it is for Real Work™. I won't notice the difference between 50tps and 1000tps when asking Siri a question.
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Massive economic simulations with thousands if not millions of agents to front run the global economy and stock market.
Fully interactive realtime NPCs in videogames at scale.
Recommender systems that simulate individual consumers.
Crazy shit
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Works great from a press release perspective though.
The weights might fit in cache, if you're using a small model. If you wanted to have a 20B+ parameter model, that's just going in RAM. You could put more RAM in the device and pay the perf cost or have a dedicated chip. Most devices already have a dedicated chip, this just changes which silicon you're spending the money on.
That math doesn't really work.
8B model (FP4) = 4 GB DRAM = 32 Gb DRAM = 80 mm2
8B model (Taalas) = 4 GB ROM = ~800 mm2
That's actually a really good point... There's currently zero incentive to buying more hardware, and that's one very good reason do have a new one.
But this is already happening with iPhones. Apple is touting on-device AI and only the latest phones offer the full capabilities. Newer phones will be able to run better models, so the incentive is there as soon as someone makes the killer app that only makes sense when the model is running locally on your phone.
From what I remember, these chips are not mobile size yet
A small model would be. I think that’s more the point. It’s definitely not SOTA but it’s fast and energy efficient and local.
> A small model would be [mobile size]
A ~30mm side for the HC1 tech for an 8b model (still unclear the planned HC2)?
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Nope, a small model would be larger than the whole iPhone SoC.
Slightly besides your point, but it's interesting how many here naturally ponder about how the current winner could or "should" keep winning, instead of how another company could become a competitor by doing the more clever thing the incumbent isn't thinking about.
It is not a “should”. At least not in the “we wish it were so” sense.
It is more that there are multiple reasons why this idea (burning an LLM into silicone and deploying it into a device in people’s pockets) requires huge piles of cash and the kind of engineering chops only a few company posesses.
Of course i would like it if a small upstart would do this, but it doesn’t seem likely as a posibility. They won’t have the funds to fab the IC. They won’t have the funds to train and validate the model before burning it into silicone. They can’t absorb the risk of the first tape out going wrong. They can’t absorb the risk of the model being faulty in some subtle way. They don’t have a device to integrate the IC into. They won’t have the funds to develop one. If they somehow would make a device they don’t have the marketing and sales channels built out to get the device into people’s hands in sufficient numbers to justify the development cost.
Basically this idea feels ruinously expensive. Apple has deep pockets, they already have working well-regarded phones, and an ethos of privacy preserving innovation. This is why this idea feels well suited for them and not many others.
Do i want the winners to keep winning? No. But not many others can pay for a moonshot crossed with a manhattan project. They just can’t.
Apple is somewhere between fashion company and second rate tech company.
They could have 9 year old AI and still post profits.
Not sure if it's my pixel or android, but I made a randos jaw drop with what the crappy AI on android can do.
When are we getting android OpenClaw?