Comment by sieve
18 hours ago
Pennywise, pound foolish decision.
India is forced to subsidize farmers to the tune of $37B JUST for urea. Governments routinely offer free bus services to women, free cash handouts to women, free electricity to farmers (who then use the power to pump out groundwater and grow paddy in areas otherwise not suitable for it). The list goes on.
A $1B subsidy to eliminate friction on the payment front is peanuts.
One of the reasons why the fee is being considered is under the pressure of other payment providers who are loosing to UPI in Indian market. Its been believed to be one of the negotiation points by the US-India trade deals
I won't be surprised. In Australia, no public transport system accepts the national payment system (EFTPOS) and instead it is either a public transport specific card or one of the 3 American rails. In NSW, there was promise of a second phase to support EFTPOS but that is hasn't happened yet.
The American Empire is alive and well.
In NSW you can tap your Opal reader with your card.
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Cards are so backward in 2026. To carry them should by itself make one shudder.
What a fall from grace for the progenitor of Non-Aligned Movement to be bowing down to USA and hurting its own people. The Nation has been betrayed by the State.
I agree with the sentiment - however, even after independence, India has been ruled by the same Anglophone/phile elite with nearly the same set of laws/policies/ interests. Even the Indian constitution comes in large part from the 1935 GoI Act passed in the British Parliament.
(Anglo-)India is of the Anglophones, by the Anglophones and for the Anglophones for all practical purposes.
That's why laws etc. are mandated to be written in this foreign language that's incomprehensible to the majority, and why there's a strict near-apartheid like barrier preventing higher education (and with it, higher employment) to non-Anglophones.
The only reason I imagine we don't hear about this systematic discrimination that prevent downstream material development like industrialization (as opposed to the ethereal one like caste) is perhaps because Western institutions have vested geopolitical interest in having such a large vassal, intellectually if not politically.
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Melodramatic much? It's a trade deal (if the parent is to be believed). Both sides are getting something out of it. Presumably, India needs access to the US market more than the other way round.
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Well, NAM would only be successful with two power centers. One of the power centers disappeared which precipitated this state. It has nothing to do with the state as such.
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Respect to China who foresaw this and built a massive economy without using anything of US.
Brazil faces similar pressures from credit card companies via Trump. We're cutting them out of their precious profits and they don't like that.
Any such issues on health care side? Here in India, at least in my state (Kerala), American Private Equity giants such as BlackStone and KKR are acquiring major hospital chains. I am worried they will ruin our healthcare just like what happened in USA. Healthcare was one thing India had better than USA (at least in availability and cost, availability as in being able to see a doctor same day or getting an MRI in a few hours). Now, that will disappear.
https://indhospitalsolution.com/blogs/keralas-hospital-gold-...
> The research from the United States — which is a decade further down this road — is sobering. Studies of PE-acquired hospitals document consistent patterns: non-revenue-generating services reduced, staff-to-patient ratios cut, ancillary charges inflated, and a systematic shift toward high-margin procedures.
https://jeswinjos.medium.com/someone-is-quietly-buying-keral...
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Same reason the US is going after Pix in Brazil. The world is decoupling from the US and the US is going to try to flex against it as it continues. Dollar dominance and the “exorbitant privilege” continue to erode (with the acceleration self inflicted). Also shrinks the TAM of these private US firms to only the US versus the world.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415854
Something like Pix is a great blueprint for the future imo.
I don’t want international private companies controlling payments, better have my own elected government manage it.
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The interesting thing is that Visa's payment rails are cheaper than Pix. Pix charges businesses 0.22% to 0.33% while the Visa network rate is only 0.10% to 0.15% per transaction.
The main thing that makes card transactions more expensive is the merchant bank assuming chargeback risk, but that's because card payments are an entirely different transaction type. Pix is digital cash. You typically cannot get refunded for any reason. Cards are not digital cash. You can get refunded for fraud and unauthorized transactions.
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If the US had any foresight it could stave this off by making its own global payments system be the one with the lowest fees, and thereby keep people using US currency and US institutions.
Whereas if you give other countries the obvious win that they can stop paying ~3% of their entire economy to a foreign payments network then you lose the fees anyway and that other stuff on top of it.
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> US-India trade deals
There it is! Behind every revealed shittery and fuckery, there's one name that constantly come up. As for this example, I'll give you a clue: it's not India.
> One of the reasons why the fee is being considered is under the pressure of other payment providers who are loosing to UPI in Indian market.
Correlation is not causation. Banks have demanded this (getting rid of Zero MDR) for many years, even prior to Trump assuming office. However, it may have momemtum now due to the impending trade deal. But that's speculation either way, and the burden of proof rests with whoever is making that assertion.
What the government conceded (or gained, which could be a boring topic relatively) would make an impactful story. Unfortunately, newpapers today mostly rely on correlation rather than doing the hard work of finding someone who'll spill the beans. There's very little of Tehelka-style "Operation West End" (or "All the President's Men" for a movie equivalent) going on these days.
* association I mean, not correlation.
I assumed you were joking about this, but wow, the US indeed did demand this from both India and Brazil. Brazil rejected while India knelt and surrendered. US also demanded that India not enforce any market cap limit for UPI payment providers to prevent monopolies - and India surrendered there as well.
Unfortunately, current Modi govt is compromised due to Adani and the Epstein files. It can only hop and jump to whatever Trump orders.
these mfs have no shame do they?
>India is forced to subsidize farmers to the tune of $37B JUST for urea. Governments routinely offer free bus services to women, free cash handouts to women, free electricity to farmers (who then use the power to pump out groundwater and grow paddy in areas otherwise not suitable for it). The list goes on.
>A $1B subsidy to eliminate friction on the payment front is peanuts.
These are entirely independent issues.
Should India subsidize farmers like this? IDK, maybe
Should India charge fees on UPI payments? IDK, maybe
I don't think adding a 0.5% surcharge to transactions over Rupees 2000 is "pound foolish". Most transactions are smaller, and someone has to pay to maintain the infrastructure. :shrug:
Also: just because money is being wasted on cause $X does not mean that there's more of it lying around to be wasted on cause $Y! You've got to draw the line somewhere!
> someone has to pay to maintain the infrastructure
Do you know what it costs to run the cash infrastructure? Maintaining physical branches, employees to handle cash, counting machines, counterfeit detectors, security personnel, armoured transport, theft risk etc. The costs of maintaining a centralised digital infrastructure pales in comparison to this. If anything you should get a discount for using digital.
There are other hidden benefits as well. Tax evasion and money laundering become a lot harder in a system that tracks transactions. That can be massive benefit or a dystopian nightmare depending on the people in charge, but for many governments that's something worth throwing money at.
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> someone has to pay to maintain the infrastructure. :shrug:
Under Indian law, companies must spend 2pc of their net profit on CSR activities (corporate social responsibility). Ask banks to use that money. The Indian banking sector made a combined profit of $40B this year. 2pc of that is $800M. Close to the $1B number.
> You've got to draw the line somewhere!
Draw it in the farm sector! They do not have to pay income tax on their income, get subsidies on fertilizers, free electricity, guaranteed prices for their crops. Small farmers cannot take advantage due to average holding size, and large farmers laugh all the way to the bank!
Is "2pc" the same as 2%?
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I think you overestimate how many millionaire farmers we have. Most of Indian farm sector is small holdings and they need the subsidies. Most of the power is with intermediaries and not farmers themselves. The intermediaries fund the farmers through high interest loans and additionally they provide distribution. The situation is much more complex and needs a thorough rework.
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how does one become a farmer? seems like a good life. i'm indian btw.
While most transactions are smaller,
> Transactions above ₹2,000 account for only about 4% of total UPI transaction volume, but they make up roughly 67% of the total transaction value.
https://www.outlookbusiness.com/news/will-upi-payments-above...
Agree. Antiquated Indian farm subsidies are the biggest impediment to sustained growth. Nothing can be done, because it'd be electoral suicide to touch them. India's holding more than 100 million tons (!) of grain due to the mandatory procurement policy. It is not merely wastage, but also an environmental disaster to keep doing this.
$1B or even $5B is nothing, given the impact UPI has had across the country.
India (central govt.) also doesn't tax farmers even when they've made bumper profits from their produce. The moment a political party even mentions of taxing rich farmers, their politics is over.
Basically country is going to shits purely due to votebank politics, and this is true across party lines no matter who is in power.
Do rich farmers really have enough strength in numbers to outvote other populations in India?
They certainly wield power to mobilise poor farmers, leading to anarchy.
Highly recommend reading about Farm Bills that govt. had to take back even when surveys by Supreme Court showed that over 85% farmers across the country were in favor of those bills and wanted them turned into laws.
A large number of politicians are farmers. So...
Where do you see $1B subsidy? There is no subsidy. The system is already profitable. This will generate a new revenue stream of $1B for banks out of thin air that has no reason to exist.
Don't forget no income tax on "agricultural income" even if that income is millions.
How is it financially sustainable?
Why to women?
India is a conservative society. Women are 50% of the vote bank. They actually vote in larger numbers compared to men in many constituencies. They manage households and are very quick to notice price increases etc. The free bus rides and cash handouts are basically a transparent attempt to buy their vote. It is what it is.
I wonder when Marx wrote "religion is opium for the masses" he had India in mind because goddamn it fits perfectly.
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This happened post COVID - to help poor. A few states did that - saw electoral gains. It is not nationwide.
There is also a misconception. It is not in all public transport. In TN state, it is on select buses - slower buses only.
In Kerala, its not for poor. Its for all women. If the women is traveling with a 5 year old boy, she has to pay for the boy though.
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Indian farmer subsidization is retarded. india needs to make farming as unattractive a profession as possible. Every social ill in the subcontinent is ultimately due to the fact that the majority of the population is in farming.
Who will feed 1.5 billion people then? Being dependent on trump for corn and rice?
Bro thinks he can create more rice and wheat using `dd` command.
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It's a bargain and exactly what governments are for. It's 70¢ per Indian. It's a payment highway and commerce is good.
edit: replied to comment was rephrased during reply.
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> Treat the payment backbone as a public infrastructure.
Yeah. Let banks fund this out of the 2% of NP they must use for CSR activities if they have to.
> he too subscribes to the anarcho-right political ideology of transferring wealth from the poor and the middle-class to the rich
I do not see this. In fact, he is TOO socialist. He was elected on the platform (one of them at least) of "minimum government, maximum governance" and has actually continued to expand the reach of government. The bureaucracy has not been tamed. The government continues to run businesses. Build a sovereign wealth/investment fund like Singapore if you want a share of the growth in the economy instead of running loss-making businesses for decades.
And all the centralization of decision-making. He is more of Nehru/Indira than he thinks he is.
> I do not see this. In fact, he is TOO socialist.
GST implementation, Demonetisation, unnecessary COVID restrictions etc. resulted in anarchy that was all designed to drain wealth (make labour cheaper) and / or transfer wealth from ordinary people or small businesses to the corporates (to make select rich, richer). He has also weakened all social welfare programs of the previous government by reducing funds or introducing restrictions designed to sabotage it for the intended beneficiaries. The centralised decision-making stems from the fascist ideology that he subscribes to (RSS, the indian organisation that he emerged from, admired Mussolini and Hitler).
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> he too subscribes to the anarcho-right political ideology
Trump is not at all a libertarian? He's probably the least libertarian republican president in modern history. He is big government, anti-free market and anti-global markets (tariffs), pro-state intervention in industry favouring big legacy businesses (CHIPs act, auto companies, etc), and big on debt spending.
Did Trump's Tariffs create confusion and mayhem, increase price (drain wealth) and ultimately lead to the siphoning of billions of tax payer money (again, another drain) to rich corporates? Yes, it has. Make of that what you will ...
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