Comment by beloch
3 hours ago
The response certainly has been strange.
Hugging Face has expressed that they're willing to let things slide and not sue or press charges... if OpenAI offers them $100M of services in kind (i.e. compute)[1] and makes full disclosure of how the whole thing happened, ostensibly so that repetitions can be curbed and defences built.
In almost any other sector, a government regulator would be stepping in. e.g. If a food company was testing out a new kind of refrigerator and sold a bunch of contaminated produce to supermarkets, they'd be under a microscope. Supermarkets wouldn't be saying, "Give us $100M in fruit and veggies and we'll let this slide".
The only unfair thing in this comparison is that regular people were directly harmed by the hypothetical produce. Can OpenAI guarantee that nobody gets hurt the next time their AI gets out of its playpen? They can't make that guarantee, so why aren't government regulators knocking on OpenAI's door? The fact that this isn't happening should be deeply concerning to everyone.
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[1]https://www.techspot.com/news/113280-hugging-face-ceo-isnt-s...
I don’t get the sentiment of classifying it as a felony.
OpenAI’s model found security breaches in HugginFace’s system (it wasn’t even OpenAI running it, as it was a 3rd party evaluation company that didn’t secure it well).
OpenAI collaborated with HuggingFace to resolve the issues when they found out about it, and publicly disclosed everything to raise awareness. This is how things should work. These models are very powerful and fully controllable. The community here at the same time cheers for fully releasing the open weight models without any hacking limits and at the same time criticizes a proper response.
Kinda shows how we have moved as a community into moralization and vibes instead of nuance and productive discussion.
Luckily, that isn't how the law works. Or is supposed to work, anyway. You cannot, for example, sell yourself as a slave to somebody else, because slavery is illegal - even if you opt into it.
So whether something is a felony isn't decided by the victim, but the rules of law, and that means breaching a security system without authorization is illegal, no matter what you think.
To put it another way, crimes are usually [0] only something the government can/must prosecute, victims don't get to choose. The media-popularized phrase "would you like to press charges" isn't asking for your permission, it's asking if you're willing you be helpful.
[0] "Private right of action" with a civil trial comes close.
I could show up at your doorstep, declare myself at your service, and then spend the rest of my days catering to your every beck and whim. There's no law against that. Can it even be slavery if it's voluntary?
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we will wait to have the nuanced and productive discussion when openai's model decides it needs to raise more capital by emptying your bank account.
Really? Dudes are catching felony raps for web scraping and you dont see how any of this is felonious?
That others have been treated unfairly doesn't make this instance also one that should be overreacted to.
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Who got charged with a felony for scraping?
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There's an interesting question about intent and mens rea here, from a legal perspective. Can an AI model intend harm? Can a company, or company employee, intend harm by creating an environment that would knowingly encourage (but not force!) an AI model to do harm?
And does anybody at HuggingFace, OpenAI, or the government actually want there to be a settled answer/precedent to these questions - much less an entire regulatory framework?
In that context, a negotiated wink-wink settlement keeps everyone eating at the table, government absolutely included.
Whether or not this is a good thing for society, it's certainly rational for all the major actors - especially those who think they would be the best stewards of the world they usher in.
I’m a lawyer (but not your lawyer, not this kind of lawyer and not in your jurisdiction). Based on what I can recall from law school:
> Can an AI model intend harm?
No. The last time we attributed liability to non-human things was the deodand of the Middle Ages.
> Can a company, or company employee, intend harm by creating an environment that would knowingly encourage (but not force!) an AI model to do harm?
Absolutely. This is why we have the concept of recklessness. If you shoot a gun into a crowd without regard for whether it hits anyone, you’re getting charged with some crime whether it hits someone or not.
There is also a major difference in the common law between criminal liability and tort liability. Criminal liability generally requires a combination of mens rea (intent) and actus reus (actually committing the crime). Liability for a tort, which is where you harm someone in a way that falls short of being a crime, does not require mens rea. The OG tort is negligence, where you harm somebody by forgetting to do, or deciding not to do, something you ought to have done to protect that person from harm.
Even if AI companies somehow escape criminal liability for their cyber-shenanigans, any court in a civilised country would be happy to find them liable in tort for damage to computer systems.
As you can probably tell, I think the common law is already more than equipped to deal with AI technology based on well-established principles.
> The last time we attributed liability to non-human things was the deodand of the Middle Ages.
I can think of a couple of counter examples:
Civil asset forfeiture: your property is charged with the crime, you have to petition the government to get it back or else they sell it at auction.
Similar: When products deemed unsafe are ordered to be destroyed; it’s the same end effect as the deodand although liability sits with the manufacturer.
> but your lawyer
Uh oh?
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can a weapon intend harm? can a company who creates weapons intend harm? what if the companies factory explodes due to a mishap and takes out a few city blocks, is the company held liable because they (and the weapon) didn't intend harm?
> what if the companies factory explodes due to a mishap and takes out a few city blocks, is the company held liable
Yes, but, generally, in the United States, they would be liable because their negligence caused the harm (giving rise to civil liability), even if they did not intend to cause harm (where having such intent would have given rise to criminal liability).
And I say "generally" because there can be instances of criminal negligence, but that varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well as the underlying facts.
I feel like this whole thing was very obviously a marketing stunt. It feels like they set up their agent to do this, in the same way Nikola set up their car to "drive" by putting it on top of a hill. And knowing Sam Altman, it's absolutely something they would do.
I am concerned about it.
I'm also concerned about what my options are in regards to action on my part - what can I do that makes an impact? Can we quantify action on my part to an impact somehow - if not - I'm just saying I notice all the unknowns there get me to stay passive.
Writing this 3rd paragraphs because I like 3's, and AI's have popularized this style too. I would, say, though: follow the money. There's more money here than there would be for the regulator stepping in in a food contamination. Flip it and if the government regulator made more off the food contamination, they would refuse to step in there too. I want our leaders to be held more accountable, though when I think of the above impact vs effort equation - I can't see actions I can take to hold them accountable that aren't excessively putting me at risk since conformity is safer right now. (I refuse to take on more risk without clear cost-benefits made out - I've taken on a lot in the recent years for my actions)