Comment by mikert89

14 days ago

Far more things/movements are orchestrated than are organic. This is to me one of the most surprising things I have learned as I got older.

8 comments

mikert89

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pkul  14 days ago

I am starting to be under the impression that movements are steered by leaders but formed only when the underlying conditions are present. No single element can make the movement.

I am reluctant to believe stories like "The CIA created modern art", as it is just a single part, although a very influential part, of the movement.

I say this as somebody who is very cautious about believing anything and am quick to call things (probably incorrectly) propaganda or disseminated by paid actors.

  • zmgsabst  14 days ago

    Is the claim “created”?

    My understanding is that the CIA influenced the rise of modern art over Soviet realism, eg, by hosting shows and bidding up prices.

    That is “created” in the sense that a movement would have been smaller or fizzled without their patronage, but not “created” as in invented absent an underlying cohort of sincere artists.

    If you believe the CIA was an important and necessary part of the movement, you seem to agree they created.1 modern art, even if they co-opted rather than created.2 the style.

    • Barrin92  14 days ago

      >would have been smaller or fizzled without their patronage

      this seems entire implausible. Many of the expressionist, surrealist or modernist artists were European refugees who fled fascism, the government apparently spent less on their efforts than an average regional election today costs, and expressionism still exists.

      This is the American equivalent of one of those 'are the Chinese behind this' conspiracies every time anything Chinese starts to be popular. Governments who can't get things done for billions apparently suddenly can invent entire art forms with a few million bucks.

      No doubt there were people who thought abstract art would make for good advertisement for American liberalism, but no they did not invent, steer or even meaningfully influence it

notarobot123  14 days ago

I assume by "orchestrated" you mean intended by the people involved in making them happen. Humans act in the world. Some people have power and influence that they bring to bear on their activities and desired outcomes. It's true.

That said, there's a tendency (that I think increases as we age) to want to explain everything in terms of order, control and power. Explaining away the world's complexities seems to be a pretty strong human trait.

Maybe the idea of a complex and uncertain world is just too uncomfortable for us to accept.

abandonliberty  14 days ago

A great book on this is 'Active Measures'. Most things have an organic start, which are then amplified / co-opted by various actors.

The concept of Nuclear Winter first came up in the USA, then the Russians caught wind of it and claimed they had independently reached the same conclusions. This helped them turn public opinion against the deployment of more missile bases in Europe... conveniently after they had already deployed theirs.