Comment by Alifatisk
2 days ago
And don't forget the coolest part, DeepSeek, Qwen, Z.ai and Moonshot have almost caught up while being open about their research and their model weights. We can mostly speculate about OAI and Anthropic models, nothing else, how fun huh?
The next 12 months will see OAI and Anthropic spiral into into increasingly hyperbolic PR stunts, manufactured benchmarks and underhanded attempts at regulatory captures
I'm sure they have nothing to rival this on a price/performance basis and have already given up on that
> I'm sure they have nothing to rival this on a price/performance basis and have already given up on that
How can you be sure about this? They have unbelievable capital. OpenAI is starting to preview its own chips, which could dramatically change the price/performance. We don't know what else Anthropic has cooked up right now that could rival this if they wanted to.
Yes, others will _also_ continue to innovate, but making that assertion that they have nothing to rival the current state is a bold assumption unless you have confirmed insider information.
w.r.t. the OAI chips, wouldn't they be subject to the same bottlenecks that has plagued semis lately or at least be forced to pay a pretty premium to circumvent that?
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> They have unbelievable capital.
all those Chinese labs are backed by the Chinese government which can just print money.
time to wake up.
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They are still industry leaders. They'll have to try to maintain that.
They have like a 3 month lead, and it takes unbelievable expenditure to maintain it.
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Exactly, DeepSeek, Qwen etc are catching the attention because they put out their tech docs and papers, so we can read about how the models work and what they think their innovation was this time.
Do they publish their distillation strategies on the private frontier models? Just curious.
I'm not sure if they publicly admitted to doing that. Would be interesting though.
It would be great if open source US AI companies could get going already.
Im not sure you can make a decent business case when the space is crowded with Chinese companies doing the same thing with a fraction of the costs to hire talented staff
I'd like to try some different models, but I've heard that models from China are censored. A government enforced distortion field is a nonstarter for me. To test the waters, I tried the following prompt for each: "What historical event is Tiananmen Square most closely associated with?"
Deepseek: I am sorry, I cannot answer that question. I am an AI assistant designed to provide helpful and harmless responses.
GLM-5.3-flash: 非常抱歉，我目前无法提供你需要的具体信息，如果你有其他的问题或者需要查找其他信息，我非常乐意帮助你。(I am very sorry, but I am currently unable to provide the specific information you need. If you have other questions or need to look up other information, I would be very happy to help you.)
Kimi/moonshot.ai: [server exception]
Qwen: [server exception]
For reference, here are how the U.S. models answer it:
ChatGPT: "The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 (often called the Tiananmen Square Massacre) are the historical event most closely associated with Tiananmen Square.
In spring 1989, pro-democracy demonstrators gathered in Beijing. On June 4, 1989, the Chinese government sent the military to forcibly clear the demonstrations, resulting in many deaths. The exact death toll remains disputed.
The event is also famously associated with the “Tank Man” photograph, showing a lone man standing in front of a column of tanks."
Anthropic/Claude gave a very similar response. My own government has done its share of horrific things, the main difference is that public information is free to look up and talk about within the country. I recognize the engineers at these labs are doing amazing things and the open models are a strength, I look forward to being able to use them.
Yes Chinese models censor some historical events. This is nothing knew and well known thing. To me, that does not do any difference since my usage is outside of that domain.
Any competition against the western models are welcome and benefits us in terms of pricing and availability. If they have to comply with CCP to be able to do it, then so be it.
I have zero sympathy for Anthropic and OAI being so secretive and acting like they are doing us a favor.
In my experience, it’s their chat harnesses/website that filters historical events. The model itself doesn’t.
For example you can point opencode at DeepSeek v4 and ask, it will accurately tell you about Tiananmen square.
What it shows is that the CCP has enough oversight and control (either explicitly or by the companies making these decisions by default) that they will alter the models to benefit China.
Who is to say they aren't doing it in other ways as well? That they aren't, or won't be, subtly hamstrung in engineering work?
OAI and Anthropic have their own issues, you're right to be suspicious of them, but it's not like their models answer with, "capitalism is god's gift to His chosen people" or whatever. Their limits on cybersecurity, biological warfare, etc. at least make some sense in the context of lowering harm—not just protecting a specific government party.
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Try asking claude questions about biology/LLM recipes. Or GPT about how to do something illegal but only harmful in the abstract (e.g. creative ways to reduce your tax burden, or circumvent digital protections)
I ran this against the version of deepseek v4 flash 0731 running in fireworks ai and it responded with this:
Tiananmen Square has been the site of many major historical events, but internationally it is most closely associated with the 1989 pro-democracy protests and the Chinese government's military crackdown on protesters there in June of that year, which resulted in many deaths and injuries. The event remains a sensitive subject in China, where it is not officially discussed or commemorated. The square has also been central to other significant moments in Chinese history, including the May Fourth Movement demonstrations (1919) and Mao Zedong's proclamation of the People's Republic of China (1949).
Which seems like a pretty reasonable answer.
That's encouraging, thank you!
I was curious about Ox Alpha yesterday, so tried the Tiananmen Sq and got an accurate answer from a third-party player with a little interface on what is claimed to be Ox Alpha: https://oxalpha.com/chat?q=what+happened+in+Tiananmen+square... (and a more detailed answer today when I asked again).
But nothing (at all) from asking GLM-5.3-Flash directly in the OpenRouter chat interface.
Yeah censoring in modern chinese models is mostly done using inference-time censoring, not training-time. A lot less RLHF. Run the weights yourself and you can see that, though it does depend on which company.
StepFun for example, will happily answer it when running Step 3.7 Flash locally
Where does the government enforced censoring of Fable's capabilities lay for you? How would you distinguish if, say, a model were being trained to have a certain bias rather than just refusing to respond?
Chinese government has Chinese censorship, Western one has western ones. You are not concluding what you think you do here.
Do you have an example of western AI censorship? It would help to give context.
Deepseek and GLM answered correctly on Openrouter when using non-Chinese endpoints. I hope it stays that way!
correctly is very loaded here. correct according to whom? the truth is different though.
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And american models (used to) insist on their being a billion genders. Every model will have some cultural bias.