Comment by EA-3167
14 hours ago
On one hand I appreciate the considerate scholarship on display, and since there are so many Catholics maybe some will even listen to their purported leader. On the other hand I find any talk of greed, selfishness, manipulation and degradation of humanity... really rich coming from a pope. Maybe I'm supposed to forgive, but I'm not going to forget that they spent decades abusing, hiding abuse, trying to force abortion to the margins along with birth control even when HIV became an obvious pandemic. I'm tired of the leader of an organization that owns a whole city preaching poverty to the masses, even if this particular leader has better PR than most.
Enough people have made these same points without the taint of that organization that I don't see this offering as necessary for the discussion, it mostly seems like a way to insert religion into something that simply doesn't require it. Faith can be a beautiful thing, personal and meaningful, but a giant organization with power and money is always going to be just that and should be treated with according suspicion.
> abortion to the margins along with birth control even when HIV became an obvious pandemic.
How are abortion and birth control at all related to HIV? I don't understand the connection.
Condoms prevents the spread of HIV.
The most common form of male birth control also happens to be the primary recommended means to avoid HIV and other STI's: the condom. Sorry if I was unclear and made it seem like it was improperly related.
My bad, I was thinking hormonal.
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The only 100% effective form of birth control, which is also the most effective at avoiding HIV and other STIs, is the one that the Catholic Church recommends. Why do you want them to promote less effective alternatives instead?
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The abuse, sure, but the birth control stance is really the only one compatible with the Catholic idea of sex only being appropriate in the context of a monogamous, lifelong married couple. I'm not really sure what you're getting at with that one, since there wouldn't be an HIV or STI epidemic in that world.
In this world with real people in it a lot of needless suffering and death resulted from that allegedly principled stance. I'm not sure what to take away from the idea that in a different, imaginary world this would have been harmless, except to conclude that you blame people for not meeting a particular ideal of "love" and sex.
Again, one promulgated by people who see fit to protect pedophiles and allow them to continue their abuse.
>trying to force abortion to the margins along with birth control
Do you have some suggestions about the doctrines that Catholics should assent to?
My feeling is that freedom of religion is important, but I also believe that there have to be limits and public health crises are one of those limiting factors. I would point today to people who use a religious exemption to avoid vaccination as an example of people who's (perhaps) sincere expression of religious belief is incompatible with their duty to the society they're a part of.
You're accountable to more than God.
Is the Catholic Church against condoms being used for gay sex? It's my understanding that they're only against them because they're against purely recreational sex. If the sex can't result in a child anyway then I dont think they're going to treat it as a double sin.
Restricting the availability of the condoms restricts them for everyone.
I'm unsure how this relates to my comment, unless you're under the impression that HIV is exclusively spread through "gay sex" as you put. I certainly don't want to make the assumption about you though, given how archaic and bigoted that view is. If you could clarify what you mean I'd appreciate it.
Not exclusively but predominantly. Which makes me doubtful that the Catholic Church moved the numbers much on the HIV pandemic. Assuming of course that they weren't against condom use between men, which I'm not sure if they had or have a stance on.
Did you read it?
89. Living out justice in the Church means purifying ecclesial relationships and structures from distortions that give rise to inequality, lack of transparency and abuse of power. In this regard, listening to the victims of spiritual, economic, institutional, sexual and power-based abuse, as well as abuses of conscience, is an integral part of a journey toward justice, which includes acknowledging the harm done, just reparation and taking steps to prevent it from happening again. Every power is at the service of communion and mission. All authority is at the service of the People of God. This ministry of service is expressed not only through our faith celebrated and lived in the Sacraments, and in the adoption of a synodal style, but also in the concrete sharing of goods. Following the example of the early Church, ecclesial resources need to be shared so that no one among us may be in need (cf. Acts 434, and so that their administration may support the mission of proclaiming the Gospel to the poorest. Regular assessments of the exercise of ministerial responsibilities should be encouraged, not as judgments on individuals, but as tools for learning and correction oriented toward mission. 116 Only to the extent that we are open to the action of the Holy Spirit will these principles of Social Doctrine become incarnate in ecclesial life. In this way, the Church will be able to bear credible witness to society that seeking the common good together, with shared responsibility and fraternity, is not a utopia, but a real possibility.
https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/events/event.dir.h...
I did read it, but words are cheap, even very flowery words that make all sorts of promises. There's no particular reason to trust that organization's leadership, so any promises should be believed only once results materialize and last for some period of time. I for example would hesitate to credit the church with stamping out abuse just because no major stories have broken this year (that I'm aware of).
Likewise when it comes to changing their practical stances and teaching on matters that have very real impacts on health and wellbeing of so many, I'll believe it when I see the results for some time.
Catholic nuns and religious were some of the first and only to help gay men during the AIDS crisis, so your moral pearl clutching is somewhat hyperbolical. Yes the church has particular moral beliefs you disagree. Join the club.
I'm disinterested in their beliefs, only their actions. Their actions overall speak much more loudly of a callous disregard for life (see: HIV in Africa) and the wellbeing of their most helpless charges (children). I'm not damning Catholics here, I'm talking about the central political and financial entity at the heart of it only.