Comment by bufordsharkley
4 days ago
I've still never had a smartphone (technically my flip phone, a Kyocera Dura, is an android device, but it can't install apps so I'll consider it suitably "dumb")
Occasionally I need to tote along a tablet because several places (some MLB venues, for one thing) will either require a smartphone, or impose a severe surcharge for the convenience of not using it.
Anyway, I really regret that we didn't impose dumbphone protection laws back when we had a large enough bloc of seniors that didn't "upgrade" to a smartphone yet
The problem is not smartphones per se. They are very handy. They eliminate the need to carry a thick wallet full of physical ID cards, credit cards, membership/discount cards, etc. They help you if you are lost (who even gets lost anymore, with navigation and maps in your pocket). They let you access information and entertainment wherever you are.
The problem is the tracking and invasion of privacy, and that all traces back to ads.
Ads are at the root of all the problems with the modern internet and mobile tech.
> Ads are at the root of all the problems with the modern internet and mobile tech.
Ads aren't the problem. It's really the tracking and invasion of privacy which are the problem. Ads are just the publicly acceptable justification companies will use for invading your privacy. People don't care about giving up their privacy if they think it's just for ads because nobody really cares about which ad they get served. Some people have even been tricked into thinking that personalized ads are for their benefit.
Companies use the data they collect on us for a whole lot more than just advertising though and companies don't want you thinking about that. Even if all advertising were outlawed they'd still be collecting just as much of your data. Information is power and the information they have on you can become power they have over you. Companies are perfectly happy to use that data to set the prices they charge you, to tailor the company policies they apply to you, to deny paying out insurance/healthcare claims, and to make hiring decisions.
They'll use it for everything and anything they can if they think it'll give them an advantage. They've been seen using it for things as trivial as deciding how long to leave you on hold when you call them. The many ways they use your personal data against you is only going to increase as AI makes it easier for them to process their horde of data points in real time.
All the tracking and invasion of privacy is what really needs to be regulated and pushed back against because that data is just going to used against you one way or another.
>Ads are just the publicly acceptable justification companies will use for invading your privacy.
No, it's a primary means. Companies don't care about your data unless they can make money off of it. A few can utilize it directlty for their product (examples you highlight a few of), but for the majority it's a cost of doing business at best, and a waste of server space at worst
Otherwis, your data in bulk is only financially useful for ad companies researching ways to maximize their ROI. The kicker is that the government allows those for their own, separate reasons. But for companies you always need to follow the money.
100% agree on the ad angle. Ads normalised using digital products/services by paying with data and attention.
That is one of the reasons why I would love to see - reasonably priced - paid services, or even have governments offer them (as in: Source is open, hosting is being paid by the government). Given the role social media, the internet and so on plays today, it might make sense to treat this as a common good.
But that side track aside; I think that privacy respecting, ad free products can be offered for cheap, if their goal is only to finance themselves, development and gain a small margin. And true, network effects / buyin is real, but I also think that the market for ad-free digital spaces/services will continue to grow, as hopefully people become more and more aware of how precious and limited their attention really is.
> The problem is not smartphones per se. They are very handy. They eliminate the need to carry a thick wallet full of physical ID cards, credit cards, membership/discount cards, etc. They help you if you are lost (who even gets lost anymore, with navigation and maps in your pocket). They let you access information and entertainment wherever you are.
> The problem is the tracking and invasion of privacy, and that all traces back to ads.
The other problem is, what happens when your phone breaks? With more and more things slowly becoming app-only or mandating smartphone-based 2FA, we're slowly getting to a point where when your phone breaks, you're going to have major difficulties buying a new replacement phone in the first place.
> The problem is not smartphones per se. … They let you access information and entertainment wherever you are.
This is the exact problem with smartphones.
I don’t carry a smartphone, and I also carry a minimalist wallet (extremely thin). I replaced my couple of “discount” cards, which have barcodes, with laminated photocopies.
I don’t get lost because I am familiar with my city.
I can access entertainment at home. Why do you need to distract yourself constantly?
Smartphones just aren’t necessary if you live life intentionally. (We should get rid of targeted ads though.)
What you say works for me, but unfortunately it doesn't work for a lot of folks in countries which are hyper-dependent on certain apps like WhatsApp (Brasil, India etc). These places use WhatsApp for literally everything - like I heard about professers sharing lecture notes and assignments over WhatsApp, govt agencies accepting documents and applications only via WhatsApp, customer support for many companies is also done only via WhatsApp (with no option to call or email), many payments are done via WhatsApp, restaurants have reservations and booking confirmations done via WhatsApp and so on.
For these folks, WhatsApp isn't just some messaging/calling app, it's an entire platform. I consider myself lucky I don't live in one of those places, but I can imagine it would be really hard to live a modern life in such places without WhatsApp. And it's also scary and concerning how a single foreign megacorporation like Meta has a stranglehold over everyday lives in so many nations.
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Ads are aspect that worries me least (it is simple to block it in entire home network).
Tracking weakening safety, privacy and in massive scale allows social engineering by state. Just look how unhealthy most people react on politics. "Divide and conquer" was never more achievable in massive scale like today.
>Just look how unhealthy most people react on politics
I think that's more due to civil unrest and its resulting polarization more than anything. Bread and circuses still works just fine today. But the bread is growing thin and evrn the circus can't distract from drastically more expensive gas, groceries, and rent.
Also doesn't help that the circus chose to forgoe long term idyllic control for maximizing short term profits by algorithmically boosting "rage bait". Anger spills over eventually.
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> membership/discount cards, etc.
Those are just the precursors to all the unwanted apps and shouldn't have existed either.
A wallet emits scant telemetry.
> Anyway, I really regret that we didn't impose dumbphone protection laws back when we had a large enough bloc of seniors that didn't "upgrade" to a smartphone yet
I don't think the timeline ever really allowed for that. The time that smartphones started to be mandatory in any sense of that word feels to me to have been after every senior got one.
And even if implemented, I'm unsure how useful and enforced they'd be if every senior then jumped on the smartphone ship 5 years later.
I still use two Kyocera Cadence LTE flip phones, but I bought a few smartphones for my children over the years. Also have an iPad that was a gift and I have used it to deposit bank checks.
Instead of constantly checking my phone, I just watch people constantly checking their phones.
Meanwhile the local security guard probably is watching you on a camera wondering why you don't have a smartphone
Until they get distracted by theirs
....and in fact it is really interesting to see, what other people are doing with their smartphones and what content they consume :-D
I tried to remove the browser from my smartphone and it was impossible because of all these stupid QR scanning requirements everywhere.
The word "requirements" is doing a lot of work there. I've never met a QR code where scanning it was required of me.
Anecdotal, but I've encountered a number of places where it's more or less required.
- Restaurants: Menu is QR only. In one case, ordering food was QR only.
- Queueing up at my local Costco optical department requires scanning a QR code.
- Various other check-ins for various other government agencies and businesses.
- Urgent care check-in paperwork requiring QR code. No paper, and typing the loooong URL in manually is horrific.
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So you'd leave the restaurant if it has a QR menu?
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a bit off topic but the construction of the phrase: some word + "doing a lot of work" sounds so much like a claudism
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Our constitution (Czech rep.) doesn't require to own or communicate with smartphone.
Argument that you own dumb phone is weak. I have devices capable to use apps, I simply refuse.
I also have been using a flip phone ever since I got a cell phone. I had to upgrade it once because the old phone only supports up to 3G network or whatever, and my carrier just silently dropped all calls on that network a few years back, so I had to upgrade to one with 4G. My current phone is Alcatel 4051S.
But I also have an Android phone without any data plan attached, which I use only for recording GPS coordinates when I am taking pictures outdoors. I have mostly managed to avoid places that require scanning some code or installing some app.
> technically my flip phone, a Kyocera Dura, is an android device, but it can't install apps so I'll consider it suitably "dumb"
You can actually still sideload app stores (F-Droid, Aurora, etc.) on the Kyocera Dura. I bought mine specifically so I could still put my company-mandated pager app on it. Turns out I was able to get a physical pager instead, so I never had to go the sideloading route.
I need it too for MFA, for instance one local university required it. On another university I can just use a yubikey. That is more convenient since it is small; the tablet is not so handy. I dislike the push towards forcing everyone to have a smartphone, or become a second class citizen in the country.
What does mlb require a smartphone for?
Advance ticketing (at least, based upon my querying online, I was under the belief that Phillies don't have any sort of will-call in effect with the main MLB ticketing, so I took a tablet to be safe--I was visiting from out of town)
Similar to many live music venues: maybe they have a functional will call, but often it's overlooked/nonoperational/etc, so just using the app is the safe call
i bought my first smartphone this year. when traveling I was carrying the android tablet half of the time in my backpack, and even at home more and more you need apps for everything (e.g. lockersat club, gym entry, supermarket loyalty card, etc).
i just gave up. grapheneos + olauncher give me a minimal and open source enough experience to make it somewhat tolerable, but it makes me sad that as a society we've come to expect that you are carrying a computer with you at all times to exist.
Supermarket loyalty card surprises me there. It isn’t just a physical card? Or a phone number? That’s all I ever use at any of our supermarkets.
I've seen supermarkets that offer targeted "in app only" deals. They're trying to condition people into accepting and being comfortable with discriminatory pricing, where different people pay different prices for the same product depending on who or what they are, or how much money they have.
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I, and my 3 siblings, all use my folks landline number, which has the ringer turned off, and only used for DSL / alarm / backup outgoing calls. Works for us, heh.
I thought supermarket loyalty cards were just a QR code of a simple serial number. Is it different where you are?