Comment by tomrod

15 hours ago

How can this be stopped, from a technical perspective? Can I wrap the comms in a Faraday cage?

Obviously it would be better to have this action be illegal. But with legal privacy protections eroding in the US and other countries, it seems prudent to have a better understanding of the systems involved in the immoral surveillance.

I've had good luck with pulling service manuals, finding the telematics antenna connectors, and unplugging them. It's popular to pull the telematics module fuse, but that typically disables internal microphones and GPS that are used by android auto and carplay. This severely degrades features spouses expect to just work. The antenna pulling is a much lighter touch.

  • The amount of times I see "I'd like to do the right thing but my spouse isn't on board" is mind boggling.

    It's wild how convenience trumps everything and then we look back to say, "we should have done better."

    • Okay it's a red herring here. I also like to use carplay and the phone's GPS is truly awful to use. I also like to dictate texts and take calls in my car. These are things that don't need to be sacrificed if a scalpel is used in place of a butcher's knife.

      Sometimes it helps to have someone with their priorities in order keeping a reality check on people who don't always stay grounded.

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  • You should be using a 50 ohm 1 watt dummy load / termination. It's better at attenuating the signal than leaving the antenna unplugged.

    • You're implying the stub of an exposed coax inside a faraday cage is capable of establishing a link with cell towers. This doesn't really pass fermi tests and I've never observed it myself, just read the paranoid concerns of people online.

      Regardless, taping some foil around the connectors with the foil making okay contact with the metal chassis is more than enough attenuation at sub GHz microwave to remove this concern without having to source specialty terminations and crimpers (or worse, non-reversible damage to the OEM cable assemblies by repurposing their terminations). I've done the foil+tape on some of my vehicles, but it hasn't made a difference in binary "does it connect or not?" testing.

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  • I wonder if this increases or reduces the value of the car???

    • If your buyer is an institution like Carmax or similar, lower.

      If your buyer is the end owner, probably increase a little bit unless they are surveillancemaxxing.

    • A good question. I'm not really concerned with the answer since I don't plan on selling my cars. I'm sure a good population would pay to not have their car spy on them and I can think of very few that would pay to have it turned on.

      Easily reversible mods only affect price for suckers anyway.

It definitely can be stopped. For example, China sells cars internally at cheaper prices, but they are locked to prevent using them outside the country. However, there are people who can hack and unlock them allowing operating in any country. But maybe it would be illegal in the West, I don't know. Removing the modem is an easier task.

What sucks is that at least with my car, if you pull their access, you also lose all your remote access as well, and the ability to receive updates.

  • Why do you need remote access to your car? What updates does your car need?

    • > What updates does you car need?

      These cars are more software than hardware now. And like everything else in the software industry, every product gets released incomplete and patched later.

      Although the correct solution would be a USB port somewhere to insert a patch file rather that over-the-air updates that might happen while driving.

    • It’s practical to see battery level so I can optimise the electricity price at which I charge it.

      Although it wasn’t worth the cost of the 3 year subscription so I now just estimate the charge status based on the charge’s power consumption.

      If the car is at 10% battery, it may be worth charging at .15 or .3€/kWh. If it’s at 70% charge, I’ll wait until the price drops to .005€/kWh. The whole thing is automated in HA.

    • You can do stuff like like turn it on to heat or cool the cabin, live track it's location, lock/unlock doors, open/close trunk, and updates are mostly for the infotainment systemn and driving assists.

      Their is a cell modem in the car, so all these features are available anywhere the car has cell service.

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Remember that story a week ago „everything I own, owned“? That’s one way.

Simple: don't own a vehicle with this capability.

  • Much like owning a home without an HOA attached, it is becoming harder and harder to meet this requirement.

    It also seems to conflict with `right-to-repair` laws if the capability is legally required.

    • It really isn't. FB Marketplace is literally awash in perfectly serviceable vehicles that don't and can't phone home. For the budget conscious among us it's also significantly cheaper to buy a "clapped out" used older car and refresh the drive train than buying new or late model.

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    • >Much like owning a home without an HOA attached, it is becoming harder and harder to meet this requirement.

      The near universal proliferation of owner's associations and management groups and whatnot for developments larger than ~1ac (the EPA threshold, some states/towns have lower) is something you can lay at the feet of the Clean Water Act and it's implementation and precedents over the following decades.

      The exact area of the buildings, the driveways, the community park and gazebo, etc, etc, are necessary features of the site plan that makes the math that is required to meet stormwater/environmental requirements. And and some legal entity has to be responsible for that in perpetuity. Enter the HOA. This is also why HOAs often won't allow you to expand your driveway or add a non-permeable patio, it could (prob not, but still) ruin the environmental calculations they're responsible for enforcing as a condition.

      I'm not nearly as familiar with car regulatory stuff but I would bet a lot of money that they're using OTA telematics to check some sort of compliance box...

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    • How do you think right-to-repair intersects with cars?

      An obvious thing may be to say the software must be published or the spec released, but we've had computers in cars since the 80s. It seems like a tall task but people can and do reverse engineer entire ECU systems (See Trionic Tuning)

      Another seemingly very obvious one - requiring manufacturers to publish specifications regarding ALL OBD interface options. Of course this immediately runs into trouble. Saab for example gated features of the security system to prevent key reprogramming, swapping of certain components without a dial out to the internet using specific saab software that runs on a laptop and interfaces.

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  • I want a car that doesn't collect the data, not one that gives a pinky promise not to sell still collected data.

    • When given the choice between privacy and convenience, the great majority of consumers choose convenience over and over again.

      I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's not going to be market based if you look at any recent trends. Interest in privacy is unfortunately a niche concern outside of places like HN.

      Anyone who has tried to market a privacy oriented product knows what I am talking about.

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  • Which brand? And what's to stop them from changing your opt in toggle on after an update as we've seen countless companies do time and time again?

  • Haven't they been caught snooping on customers before with their in car surveillance?