Comment by sowbug
10 hours ago
I'm aphantasic. I dream normally, seeing all sorts of imagery. I have accidentally had a couple lucid dreams in my lifetime, which got me interested in the methods to trigger them intentionally, all of which have failed.
The Wake Back to Bed (WBTB) method has been especially frustrating, because I'll see my usual nothing when my eyes are closed, but then for the very briefest instant I see a dream image that immediately disappears the moment I notice it.
I wonder whether whatever makes my brain aphantasic is also responsible for switching off those almost-lucid images.
I'm also aphantasic and dream normally, and I once got really into lucid dreaming for a ~semester in college.
My best successes would occur after drinking a cup of coffee and immediately taking a nap before a study session.
It was great, I "learned how to fly" and could "morph" my dream into whichever direction I wanted.
One thing stuck out though: whenever I would try and focus on something, I would see a black dot enter the center of my vision. The more I tried to focus, the larger it got. If I focused on an area attentively enough, such that the black circle became all encompassing, I would wake up.
After a few times of this, I could start to notice the focus, and then sort of relax out of it, and thus continue the dream.
It feels like the black dot is my real-life vision coming into focus, and "winning" over the visual aspects of the dream. It's always continuous from black dot to eyes opening.
I rarely lucid dream now, but I've noticed a similar thing happen whenever I try to read text - the black dot appears and I wake up.
Wish I still had unlimited time to go back to sleep!
I'm not aphantasic, but that's exactly the experience I get when coming out of a lucid dream. Except it's my expected surroundings not black. Gets a bit weird and inceptiony when it's the wrong surroundings! Given the number of cultural references along these lines, I suspect it's not uncommon.
My experience is similar.
I have dreamed visually, sometimes vividly, but not so common these days that I awake remembering a dream. Lucid dreams rarely - and almost exclusively as a flying dream, like at some point I just realise I can fly and then I'm in control for a while until I wake up. Fun when it happens but I have no idea or technique for making it happen.
When falling asleep I can have random visuals but I can't control them, and trying to do so tends to kill them off.
Yeah it does feel somewhat like the rational and external sensory processing parts of my brain are maybe suppressing the inner-generated imagery.
I feel like when asked to 'imagine an apple', some part of my brain is sort of visualising an apple, I just can't "see" it. In other threads about aphantasia, normies have wondered how we enjoy reading. But I have always loved reading fiction and, like with the apple, I get absorbed in the book and am imagining it in some sense, just not 'seeing' it.
I'm also aphantasic and dream normally.
I have some intermittent ability to lucid dream. I have noticed that if I am acting as a "passenger", the imagery is vivid and I will be able to recall everything. Sometimes something in the dream will prompt me to think. It might be entering a phone number, or reading text. As soon as I engage the process of thinking, the imagery goes away. Long lucid dreams for me rely on me being able to remain in the passenger seat.
In my waking life I consider my aphantasia similarly - I can imagine things and get the briefest of a "snapshot" of an image, but any attempt to hold onto it means it vanishes - I don't know how that's related but I suspect that it is.
I know this is different to how I am wired for sound, because I have inner music, inner voices, etc. I can replay music at will, change voices, investigate and modify them, all with perfect quality of audio recall. Earworms can be really annoying ;)
FWIW I’m exactly like you. My ability to replay music sometimes surprises me.
Sometimes I’ll hear a song on the radio I haven’t heard in decades and be able to anticipate tiny details precisely (like, “here’s where the harmonica comes in in Karma Chameleon” or “here’s where the fretless bass is gonna bend a note”. You?
I am also aphantastic, and I don't even get to dream properly. I had a dream perhaps no more than 10 times throughout my life, and almost always due to some unusual circumstances (very rough hangover, grief, broken heart). Even experiences with rather high doses of psilocybin or LSD were profoundly non-visual for me, and I made several attempts to get there.
Interesting that you say you had no visuals from LSD. How high a dose?
It's surprising to me, because as far as I understand it, psychedelic visuals aren't really akin to daydreams or internally generated imagery, but abnormal processing of external imagery. At least for relatively mild experiences. Something like a DMT breakthrough is a whole other story from what I hear, though I've never been there myself.
I'm also aphantasic, but I do dream, though rarely remember them unless I wake up and go back to sleep (probably due to being a deep sleeper rather than anything to do with aphantasia). At most I get some attraction to and diffusion of (not sure how to describe this experience) fractal patterns and vibrant colors on LSD. On shrooms I've gotten some color-shifting of lights, but no open or closed-eye visualization or hallucination. Strong opiates have given me closed-eye hallucination (uncontrollable visualization) though.
That was more than a decade ago, but I believe the highest I went for was about 4-500ug (according to the vendor, it was on a postal stamp so there can be quite some variance). I was exploring psychedelics several months in a row while increasing the dose, so there might have been some tolerance buildup. And it wasn't that I had no visuals at all - juar there was nothing visually profound, just some things shifting and moving here and there, people outside looking a bit strange, etc. Felt more like strange, weird drunkenness than anything. It was not at at all an uninteresting experience - just extremely cerebral. I tried DMT several times by the way, but couldn't break through - it gets very scary very fast, and the taste is like smoking a plastic bag, which was in itself quite off-putting.
How’s your sleep quality? I (aphantasic) only ever dream on weekends when I sleep in over 8 hours (rare), and having to get up to pee after 4 hours also cuts in.
Depends on the coffee intake and stress; when I am on vacation, I sleep 7-8 hours without waking up. I am lucky that I don't need to pee during the night, though.
I have no clue if I'm aphantasic (I genuinely have trouble feeling like anyone describes anything resembling my experience in conversations like this), but I had many years of lucid dreaming from being prescribed medication for my insomnia as a kid. It started out being pretty much every night, and then slowly became less frequent until nowadays it's maybe once every month or so.
My lucid dreaming has always been when I'm in danger, like this description of a Sadako dream
https://medium.com/luminasticity/beating-up-sadako-82c5fb3f0...
So I've never been able to trigger a Lucid dream in any particular method but often when I am being attacked it's like the adrenaline makes me think wait a second this is a dream. Some times if I get scared enough and wake up from a dream I can then make myself go back to that dream to confront the thing that scared me (but knowing it's a dream so I have the upper hand)
"Wake back to bed" works for me. I don't do it intentionally, I often wake up between 3 and 5, use the bathroom, go back to bed. It only triggers a lucid dream maybe 5% of the time but I've never had one without that.
I am in the quarter of aphantasics that report no imagined sensations of any kind, no inner sound, smell, taste or touch. I do have some very basic imagery occasionally while dreaming, a bit like Dali’s drawings. Never faces. I am also remarkably bad in remembering faces (or names) but recognise them just fine when recent. I don’t think in words, shapes, or relations. I think in words that are on the tip of my tongue and make sentences in their “rhyming”.
I'm also aphantasic and dream normally. The only time I've been "awake" and been able to visualize anything was the few times when I briefly woke up in the middle of the night and when I closed my eyes I was able to see a room in vivid detail but everything was in grayscale. This has happened multiple times and is probably more connected to being in sort of a "between-state" of waking and sleeping than the ability to actually visualize with my imagination.
Interesting to me that three different people have responded with the same "I'm also aphantasic and dream normally" start to their message.
When you express you have aphantasia to someone, one of the most common questions is whether you can dream. As someone with it: Yes I can dream. They're so real they are lifelike. And not just visually. In my dreams, reality and history itself can be different and to me, history didn't change. It just is.
I rememeber in one dream I was some sort of captain and I saw one of my closest friends. We'd been crewmates for the past 40 years and I remember all my memories with him and why I trusted him with my life. I was 22 when I had the dream.
That's fascinating. Do you gain access to facts or knowledge that are verifiable afterwards? Have you ever become fluent in a foreign language for a dream?
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I don't have aphantasia but I sometimes also have dreams that are so realistic that when I wake up I feel as if it was some type of alternative reality. In some cases it is also as if I am watching a "movie" where the life I am experiencing is not my own, but I will still know each person.
It is a good question because aphantasics that can dream normally are far less likely to engage in the sort of "aphantasia is just semantics" denalism that is largely disproven given modern science and online discourse. I.e. it is a very strong credibility signal that what follows is not just cope / self-delusion, but actually potentially useful and interesting self-report.
Question for visualizers: is imagery held steady in your dream, or does it constantly shift and morph?
I’m aphantasic and like I’ve seen many people report here, I can kinda almost conjure up images but can’t hold them steady even for a microsecond. It immediately disintegrates and can’t be brought back.
In my dreams the imagery always shifts, but not in the same way. It’s held enough to be recognizable before changing into some other random nonsense like happens in dreams.
(I dreamt last night a StarCraft 2 YouTuber I follow was spamming raven auto-turrets over some people from a helicopter, which they shot down with a machine gun, and the youtuber survived the crash but he didn’t look at all like himself and that confused me, but we were in an Italian castle, and I was hiding from gangsters, but my boss had traveled to Italy and we were in a hospital where he was getting “torso reduction” and I put my hand on the small of his back, and it was my wife)
Certain types of meditation training involve specifically this faculty - the ability to hold a particular image steady in the visual imagination. Having the ability to vividly imagine a visual scene or a simple geometric shape is very much a muscle which can be trained; the brain is very plastic in this regard.
shikantaza (zen meditation, basically) has significantly improved my ability to visualize.