The CPU on most machines is quite proprietary. I don’t understand this faux purity dogma.
Practical computing is not and never has been an abstract pure concept. It’s about making machines built by corporations to do usefull things at scale.
There is no ”non proprietary” computing unless you make your own stack.
Yes but there are business costs to using high-level proprietary tools and libraries. If you write your app using win32, you won’t be able to port is very easily. You’re also stuck with whatever bad or bizarre decisions Microsoft made.
It’s even worse for CUDA. GPUs are expensive, and now you’re vendor locked. You’re between a rock and a hard place. Either spend millions in engineering time, or millions on price-gauged hardware.
” If you write your app using win32, you won’t be able to port is very easily.”
This is wrong way around.
If you don’t support the platform your app runs on using the native api:s to the hilt your port is just bad.
If you actually want to support multiple platforms _you actually need to support_ them from the ground up.
This is speaking industrially and businesswise. A professional software business always has per-platform implementation resources. Or they have just one platform. Or they pretend they are multiplatform and then _everybody_ _daily_ fights with the problems this causes.
Obviously those elements that can be portable should be. It’s like Einsteins simplicity maxim - your codebase should be as portable as can be but not more.
” It’s even worse for CUDA…”
No these are just the business and market constraints. If this does not make sense for your offering then don’t use it. This feels like false FOMO - CUDA is not a silver bullet but it might be a specific solution to a specific problem.
I wonder which APIs you would use to port easily, because POSIX and Khronos aren't it either, as they are industry standards driven by companies where one has to pay for a seat at Open Group and Khronos offices.
If you're going to make apps in windows, you need to call their proprietary API somehow. Maybe you do it via a wrapper library, or via electron or something. But that's the same thing, just with more indirection.
> If you're going to make apps in windows, you need to call their proprietary API somehow. Maybe you do it via a wrapper library, or via electron or something. But that's the same thing, just with more indirection.
Not even close to being true. You can invoke syscalls directly, just needs a bit of reverse engineering. I wrote a bare metal libc library, with (not a whole lot of) effort I'm fully able to interface with the kernel/open windows etc. Fully statically linked, no libc, no win32, compiled on Linux executed on Windows.
The problem is this isn't really well documented _at all_, and I even ended up attempting to get in touch with the Windows kernel dev team to give me the actual internal syscalls/endpoints, but they refuse to cooperate. Which is why writing anything for Windows is entirely pointless.
The problem is much deeper than that. Most OSes' syscall ABIs are not stable and could change without warning. What is stable is the dynamically-loaded libraries, shipped as part of the system. Linux is the notable exception here; the Linux kernel project doesn't ship a libc, and Linus is very famously opposed to "breaking userspace."
There's nothing that can stop you from using syscalls in theory, but if you want your app to be portable across different OS versions, past and future, you'd better not.
Incidentally, syscalls would also break Wine. The way Wine works is basically by shipping their own versions of Windows DLLs, which express their operations in terms of Linux APIs. Because Windows programs don't rely on syscalls, and call all system functions via the system-provided libraries, the Wine loader can just link Wine's version and let the program work normally.
> This isn’t even close to being true. Here’s a thing I did that made things way more complicated than is worth it for 99% of developers when there is a proprietary solution made so I do not need to worry about these things. Because it is so hard to work around it, it is entirely pointless to develop for one of the most used operating systems in the world.
Just being totally honest this is how I read this comment when I insert context that seems important to me. I respect having principles but at some point there needs to be more value in practicality over your codebase not being locked into a proprietary framework at all.
> Not even close to being true. You can invoke syscalls directly,
The windows syscall API is yet another proprietary windows API. Sure - you can call it without loading any DLLs. But you're still calling into a proprietary windows API.
If you really hate calling proprietary windows APIs that much, maybe stop developing for windows? Develop software for linux. Or make your own kernel, or whatever. But if you keep developing software for windows, stop fighting it. Unless you have a very good reason, your software should try to fit in on its host platform. It should behave well, and work like other windows software.
It's like travel. If you fly to France, try to fit in. Maybe learn a bit of French before you go. If you hate France, don't go.
The CPU on most machines is quite proprietary. I don’t understand this faux purity dogma.
Practical computing is not and never has been an abstract pure concept. It’s about making machines built by corporations to do usefull things at scale.
There is no ”non proprietary” computing unless you make your own stack.
Yes but there are business costs to using high-level proprietary tools and libraries. If you write your app using win32, you won’t be able to port is very easily. You’re also stuck with whatever bad or bizarre decisions Microsoft made.
It’s even worse for CUDA. GPUs are expensive, and now you’re vendor locked. You’re between a rock and a hard place. Either spend millions in engineering time, or millions on price-gauged hardware.
” If you write your app using win32, you won’t be able to port is very easily.”
This is wrong way around.
If you don’t support the platform your app runs on using the native api:s to the hilt your port is just bad.
If you actually want to support multiple platforms _you actually need to support_ them from the ground up.
This is speaking industrially and businesswise. A professional software business always has per-platform implementation resources. Or they have just one platform. Or they pretend they are multiplatform and then _everybody_ _daily_ fights with the problems this causes.
Obviously those elements that can be portable should be. It’s like Einsteins simplicity maxim - your codebase should be as portable as can be but not more.
” It’s even worse for CUDA…”
No these are just the business and market constraints. If this does not make sense for your offering then don’t use it. This feels like false FOMO - CUDA is not a silver bullet but it might be a specific solution to a specific problem.
Win32 is the most stable abi on the Linux desktop.
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I wonder which APIs you would use to port easily, because POSIX and Khronos aren't it either, as they are industry standards driven by companies where one has to pay for a seat at Open Group and Khronos offices.
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> If you write your app using win32, you won’t be able to port is very easily.
Is this still true? eg, Shopify saying porting is now easy so no need for abstractions.
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If you're going to make apps in windows, you need to call their proprietary API somehow. Maybe you do it via a wrapper library, or via electron or something. But that's the same thing, just with more indirection.
> If you're going to make apps in windows, you need to call their proprietary API somehow. Maybe you do it via a wrapper library, or via electron or something. But that's the same thing, just with more indirection.
Not even close to being true. You can invoke syscalls directly, just needs a bit of reverse engineering. I wrote a bare metal libc library, with (not a whole lot of) effort I'm fully able to interface with the kernel/open windows etc. Fully statically linked, no libc, no win32, compiled on Linux executed on Windows.
The problem is this isn't really well documented _at all_, and I even ended up attempting to get in touch with the Windows kernel dev team to give me the actual internal syscalls/endpoints, but they refuse to cooperate. Which is why writing anything for Windows is entirely pointless.
The problem is much deeper than that. Most OSes' syscall ABIs are not stable and could change without warning. What is stable is the dynamically-loaded libraries, shipped as part of the system. Linux is the notable exception here; the Linux kernel project doesn't ship a libc, and Linus is very famously opposed to "breaking userspace."
There's nothing that can stop you from using syscalls in theory, but if you want your app to be portable across different OS versions, past and future, you'd better not.
Incidentally, syscalls would also break Wine. The way Wine works is basically by shipping their own versions of Windows DLLs, which express their operations in terms of Linux APIs. Because Windows programs don't rely on syscalls, and call all system functions via the system-provided libraries, the Wine loader can just link Wine's version and let the program work normally.
> This isn’t even close to being true. Here’s a thing I did that made things way more complicated than is worth it for 99% of developers when there is a proprietary solution made so I do not need to worry about these things. Because it is so hard to work around it, it is entirely pointless to develop for one of the most used operating systems in the world.
Just being totally honest this is how I read this comment when I insert context that seems important to me. I respect having principles but at some point there needs to be more value in practicality over your codebase not being locked into a proprietary framework at all.
> Not even close to being true. You can invoke syscalls directly,
The windows syscall API is yet another proprietary windows API. Sure - you can call it without loading any DLLs. But you're still calling into a proprietary windows API.
If you really hate calling proprietary windows APIs that much, maybe stop developing for windows? Develop software for linux. Or make your own kernel, or whatever. But if you keep developing software for windows, stop fighting it. Unless you have a very good reason, your software should try to fit in on its host platform. It should behave well, and work like other windows software.
It's like travel. If you fly to France, try to fit in. Maybe learn a bit of French before you go. If you hate France, don't go.
Find a way to get ring 0 without touching any system APIs and you can just make your own APIs. My programs shall never say "please."
Your programs shall never grace my systems.
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