Comment by dspillett
1 month ago
> The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for.
My irritation is that I know what it is, and I've said no thanks many times, but I'm still asked regularly by the likes of Amazon, and they usually pick a time when I'm trying to order something quick¹. It is one of the growing number of things in life that simply have no “no” option, it is always “yes or later” - I wouldn't mind so much if “later” meant “I know the option exists, I'll ask for it if I change my mind, don't bother me again otherwise”. Call me cynical, but if companies are trying to nag me into something I very much doubt the main benefit is mine. I'm sure there are many people out there who go along with it simply because they are sick of being asked repeatedly.
I also don't see the real benefit with the way things are often implemented anyway. When the credential recovery process is sending a magic email or text, making SMTP or SMS the weak link of the chain just as it often is for passwords so I'd be giving up my preferred workflows for no better security.
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[1] A short while ago I actually ordered from somewhere else because of this, bitter twit that I am. “I wonder if I can get this almost certainly drop-shipped item on next day delivery via Prime?”, [goes to Amazon to check], [get passkey prompt], “sod it, I'll go back to the original place”.
I dropped Amazon entirely a couple years ago because they didn't provide any way at all to separate my credit card from my kid's Fire tablet and I didn't want to be on the hook for thousands in charges because he pushed the wrong button. It's remarkably easy! It has made basically no change to my life except that I'm a little smug about not using Amazon.
What do you use instead? My main reason for using Amazon is the shipping which no one else can come close to
Same or next day shipping on most things I order is wild, when something goes beyond a 2-3 days on Amazon it even feels odd
And the “do you actually need the item/s that fast” isn’t the response I am looking for
Target/Walmart/BestBuy. They both have fast shipping options as well as store pickup. Sometimes (if you live somewhere more rural) they have _faster_ shipping times than Amazon.
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Shop.App doesn't have everything, but they do have a lot and many merchants have fast shipping options. I always try to search them and Newegg before trying Amazon.
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Home Depot/Lowes often have faster delivery than Amazon (like literally delivered in a few hours or next day morning).
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Could you create a separate account for the tablet without that credit card? Just curious.
but then how do you pay for things if/when you want to buy the little one something?
you either add the card then remove it, get a separate card, or find a way to use credits somehow -- but in the case of the latter two, Junior could still slam a few buttons and eat up all available funds on that card -- just without the impact of your regular card.
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I think this is the biggest reason why these category of discussion happens in the first place, there is a gap between what technology is good for, whats its ideal for and then the products motivation to push it on to the user assuming it would give a good name to the company.
Passkeys are one of the few protocols that supports against phishing (Accidentally giving away your credential to some rough site) so it has its benefits and more so for enterprise users.
It becomes challenging and is ill suited when its pushed to general public. A middle ground could have been to give it as an option to user instead of forcing it on the user. For some reason its not cool enough.
From a company's perspective
IMO it’s well-suited to the general public!
What is the average person’s threat model? Re-using passwords.
What is their most common annoyance? They forget their passwords.
Built-in password managers are great for this. But they’re not universal (e.g. I believe using Apple Passwords on Mac doesn’t carry over to Android.)
Passkeys are amazing. They’re basically magic to the average person. No typing passwords; no remembering; simply vibing, securely.
I don’t think people are regularly logging in to a huge number of accounts on other devices. Maybe they are! I doubt it.
> What is the average person’s threat model? Re-using passwords.
Wrong.
As article points out, it's not having access to their account.
Followed by not being able to easily delegate access to their account to a trusted third party (like a spouse, a friend).
Password reuse addresses the first problem, however imperfectly. Ability to share password over any channel, including analog, addresses the second.
Passkeys defeat both.
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I guess it really depends on how one choses to define general public, probably an assumption has been made that everyone has their own personal device.
> Built-in password managers are great for this. But they’re not universal (e.g. I believe using Apple Passwords on Mac doesn’t carry over to Android.
1.Only security keys (single device credentials) are what you can use across the device not the regular platform based one
2.Browser based password managers do provide you with that interoperability across the platforms and in fact the password manager as an supported passkey authenticator allows you do the same
> Passkeys are amazing. They’re basically magic to the average person.
Passkeys are crap. They are just random password prompts to give a false sense of security.
> My irritation is that I know what it is, and I've said no thanks many times, but I'm still asked regularly by the likes of Amazon
The people responsible show a distinct lack of understanding when it comes to consent.
Silicon Valley has no concept of consent and boundaries. If computing was a night club, "Silicon Valley" is the guy who goes up to every woman saying "Want to dance? [Yes or Maybe Later]?"
I don't think you carried on the analogy far enough.
>Want to dance? [Yes or Maybe Later]?, also drink this [Yes]"
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> The biggest problem, though, is how users are pushed into it without any warning or knowledge of what they're signing up for.
Gf just logged in to hotmail without knowing her password because of a popup. I tried to explain but there was no understanding to be had.
This is how the world works. You either understand it or suffer it unknowingly.
Amazon and PayPal are horrible for this. Clicking out of the dialogs and modals to actually get logged in? (Shout out to PayPal for a dark pattern that implies "continue to login" but is actually "continue to set up PassKeys", and you actually need to "cancel" to actually login).
> by the likes of Amazon, and they usually pick a time when I'm trying to order something quick
they have an algorithm that can predict the likeliest moment you'll not see or panic-hit the "ok" button in haste
I think it is simpler than that: they ask irritatingly often, and I'm often looking quickly to see if I can get something on next-day delivery, so the two factors coincide.
Amazon does benefit from increased account security; they don't have to refund non-fraudulent orders after all. For most people, a passkey is genuinely more secure.
What about availability? The article is precisely about that.
"if companies are trying to nag me into something I very much doubt the main benefit is mine."
Bingo.