That is not "fucked up" it is called the solidarity principle. You contribute when you have the capacity to contribute, and society protects you when you happen to need more than you can afford. Netflix is a consumer product, and health insurance is risk pooling. You're treating health insurance as if you're buying healthcare services. You're not. You're buying protection against an uncertain financial risk.
Also you forgot the contribution assessment ceiling at €69,750/year.
However, Germany has a legitimate problem when contribution levels, service quality, and access aren't aligned with what people feel they're paying. That is a different discussion which needs much more nuance and intimate knowledge of the German healthcare system.
The fucked up part is the forced solidarity and high barrier to exit the so called solidarity principle. You need 77,400€ annual salary to switch to private insurance in 2026 and in 2027 it will be increased to 84,150€.
Of course it is forced, it has to be. What's the alternative? Make it voluntary, which immediately will lead to the total cost only being spread across sick people that definitely are going to cost the system money, resulting in an immediate increase in coverage cost, making it unavailable to a large part of the population? Just look at how well removal of the fee for non-coverage under the ACA worked in the US. That's just "let's take health insurance away from poor people" with more steps.
Are you in favor of abolishing car insurance as well? It’s the same principle, pool money, pay out when necessary.
It lets everyone, including those less well off, enjoy relatively low insurance premiums and you get personal mobility in return.
I’m well off, part of the reason I’m well off is because I was lucky enough to be born in a place that provided lots of stability and opportunity (schooling, health care, et al), it’s nice to give back. Sure, there’s flaws and waste in places, but I’ve had a family member go through extensive medical treatment because of cancer and I genuinely wish that level of care and options for everyone, so paying my taxes and health insurance premiums it is!
The word „solidarity“ means here that you empathize with other people and contribute to shared prosperity and success. You share the healthcare system with a lot of people who make the country what it is. Some of them earn less, some earn more, and that‘s ok. With your contributions you make sure that those who bake your wonderful bread, run the public transport or clean the streets in your neighborhood are covered. If you would rather prefer American system with its deficiencies, because you are high earner and don‘t like to share, you can always go there. Dubai is also nice for people with some cash and tolerance to human rights violations.
What is really fucked up about Germany, is that exit to private insurance exists in principle, and our Bundesmimose Friedrich Merz have never used statutory one. The existing system has deteriorated only because nobody in the government is using it and has no clue what people now experience daily.
Well, people would not want to pay more, so free solidarity can not work. The net result will be higher taxes, of course. The question is whether these costs are worth it or not, but not the "let people do what they want" as that won't work - see how US billionaires don't really give up their wealth voluntarily. And now, building a foundation is just an excuse to not give the money to the people. It is for their protection of wealth, not for solidarity.
It would be solidarity, if there was not a heavy anti-solidarity side to it. You can import millions into this system that dont pay a dime, do not contribute to it (in fact need subsidys to make a living wage) but also consume the services in equal amounts.
As the main reason for my expatriation out fo a similar system I'd happily stay and pay if the service was good and the providence state was not collapsing.
As it stands its just an extraction machine to the boomer benefit and it wont survive by the time i will need it
I agree with you. People would not complain and happily pay a premium for a really good service. But that’s not the case in Germany.
Younger generation would absolutely end up paying even more in the future to sustain the health costs of aging boomers.
Also the pension scheme in Germany for a lack of better word, is a ponzi scheme. Again, younger generation is paying to sustain the boomers and by the time those young people goes into retirement, they would barely get anything out of what they have paid.
That's what universal healthcare fundamentally is; everyone pays for it regardless of whether they use it or not, and regardless of the quality of service they receive in return.
What, did you think universal healthcare meant everything would be free? That's not possible; doctors and nurses don't work for free.
No it’s not. The universal healthcare is everyone contributing to it equally. That’s not the case in Germany. Private health insurance holders doesn’t contribute to it at all and a certain professions like government workers, doctors, etc. have their own health insurance schemes and doesn’t pay into the statutory health insurance.
Even the people that has to pay for the statutory health insurance pays different amounts and also there’s a group of people that benefits from it even without paying a single euro for it. So it’s not universal at all. Only a certain group pays for the majority and takes on the burden
>
certain professions like government workers, doctors, etc. have their own health insurance schemes
<
Completely WRONG:
you are mixing up "job-dedicated" pension schemes like for lawyers or doctors with the healthcare setup - in healthcare, there are only two parties: "public" healthcare ("GKV") and "private" healthcare ("PKV"), these two types are not anyhow related to the job dedicated pension schemes.
Correct is, mostly all politicians, high-earners, docs, lawyers etc. are chosing the "private" insurance version, for (at least until yet) several benefits compared to the ones using the "public" model.
You are allowed to enter the private model above a certain salary, but you are not forced. It may be cheaper for some time, but at least if kids arrive it gets fucking expensive, since in the public model your children are insured for free,while in private mode you have to pay for them.
Also handling private mode insurance is more work.
Sounds really complicated, but at the end of the day as long as everyone has health insurance that's still by definition universal health insurance, right? In particular, having "a group of people that benefits from it even without paying a single euro for it" seems mandatory for it to be truly universal.
It sounds to me like you're envisioning something different from universal healthcare, but it's not clear to me exactly what.
> Everyone pays for it as a mandatory percentage from their salaries every month as a health insurance fee. .... the higher your salary you end up paying more money to receive the same service
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds exactly how almost all income taxes work.
> 5$ for Netflix and other paying 50$ to watch the same shows with no change in service offering.
Counterpoint -- you pay taxes to get the full benefits that a stable society provides, which includes your ability to make any income at all. The more income you earn, the more benefit you're literally getting.
> you’re young and single, you will be punished
Don't worry, it's impossible to stay young and single forever.
> I would say Germany is a good place if you’re married and have kids. Then you get a lot of subsidies from the government and it’s relatively cheap to raise children in Germany.
The number of newborns in germany last year was lowest since WW2. Seems like most germans don't agree with this assessment.
It’s not just financials. Young people just don’t want to have that responsibility and burden and restriction of freedom that comes with having children.
You have to be optimistic about the future, to have kids. And Germans lately are targeted with propaganda, algorithmic and amplified bad news. Every kind of german-speaking media and social media is full of dread, how the country is in a "freefall", etc. I saw the same in UK pre-brexit.
My siblings have covered most of your points, but I think one gets overlooked easily:
> Think of it as one paying 5$ for Netflix and other paying 50$ to watch the same shows with no change in service offering.
This used to be the norm before department stores made fixed price popular. People would haggle, and more wealthy people usually paid more because they couldn't be bothered to haggle as much.
> The fucked up part is that the higher your salary you end up paying more money to receive the same service as someone paying way less with a lowers salary.
That's basically how all progressive taxation works?
But the funny thing in Germany is that if you are on private health insurance, then you can get an appointment with a specialist like tomorrow or at most within a week.
The months waiting time only applies to statutory health insurance payees and ironically they are the ones most of the time that pays a higher premium
That is not "fucked up" it is called the solidarity principle. You contribute when you have the capacity to contribute, and society protects you when you happen to need more than you can afford. Netflix is a consumer product, and health insurance is risk pooling. You're treating health insurance as if you're buying healthcare services. You're not. You're buying protection against an uncertain financial risk.
Also you forgot the contribution assessment ceiling at €69,750/year.
However, Germany has a legitimate problem when contribution levels, service quality, and access aren't aligned with what people feel they're paying. That is a different discussion which needs much more nuance and intimate knowledge of the German healthcare system.
The fucked up part is the forced solidarity and high barrier to exit the so called solidarity principle. You need 77,400€ annual salary to switch to private insurance in 2026 and in 2027 it will be increased to 84,150€.
> The fucked up part is the forced solidarity
Of course it is forced, it has to be. What's the alternative? Make it voluntary, which immediately will lead to the total cost only being spread across sick people that definitely are going to cost the system money, resulting in an immediate increase in coverage cost, making it unavailable to a large part of the population? Just look at how well removal of the fee for non-coverage under the ACA worked in the US. That's just "let's take health insurance away from poor people" with more steps.
3 replies →
Are you in favor of abolishing car insurance as well? It’s the same principle, pool money, pay out when necessary.
It lets everyone, including those less well off, enjoy relatively low insurance premiums and you get personal mobility in return.
I’m well off, part of the reason I’m well off is because I was lucky enough to be born in a place that provided lots of stability and opportunity (schooling, health care, et al), it’s nice to give back. Sure, there’s flaws and waste in places, but I’ve had a family member go through extensive medical treatment because of cancer and I genuinely wish that level of care and options for everyone, so paying my taxes and health insurance premiums it is!
The word „solidarity“ means here that you empathize with other people and contribute to shared prosperity and success. You share the healthcare system with a lot of people who make the country what it is. Some of them earn less, some earn more, and that‘s ok. With your contributions you make sure that those who bake your wonderful bread, run the public transport or clean the streets in your neighborhood are covered. If you would rather prefer American system with its deficiencies, because you are high earner and don‘t like to share, you can always go there. Dubai is also nice for people with some cash and tolerance to human rights violations.
What is really fucked up about Germany, is that exit to private insurance exists in principle, and our Bundesmimose Friedrich Merz have never used statutory one. The existing system has deteriorated only because nobody in the government is using it and has no clue what people now experience daily.
1 reply →
Well, people would not want to pay more, so free solidarity can not work. The net result will be higher taxes, of course. The question is whether these costs are worth it or not, but not the "let people do what they want" as that won't work - see how US billionaires don't really give up their wealth voluntarily. And now, building a foundation is just an excuse to not give the money to the people. It is for their protection of wealth, not for solidarity.
It would be solidarity, if there was not a heavy anti-solidarity side to it. You can import millions into this system that dont pay a dime, do not contribute to it (in fact need subsidys to make a living wage) but also consume the services in equal amounts.
That is not anti solidarity, I know Afternative für Deutschland voters like to frame it this way but it's not.
16 replies →
As the main reason for my expatriation out fo a similar system I'd happily stay and pay if the service was good and the providence state was not collapsing.
As it stands its just an extraction machine to the boomer benefit and it wont survive by the time i will need it
I agree with you. People would not complain and happily pay a premium for a really good service. But that’s not the case in Germany.
Younger generation would absolutely end up paying even more in the future to sustain the health costs of aging boomers.
Also the pension scheme in Germany for a lack of better word, is a ponzi scheme. Again, younger generation is paying to sustain the boomers and by the time those young people goes into retirement, they would barely get anything out of what they have paid.
That's what universal healthcare fundamentally is; everyone pays for it regardless of whether they use it or not, and regardless of the quality of service they receive in return.
What, did you think universal healthcare meant everything would be free? That's not possible; doctors and nurses don't work for free.
No it’s not. The universal healthcare is everyone contributing to it equally. That’s not the case in Germany. Private health insurance holders doesn’t contribute to it at all and a certain professions like government workers, doctors, etc. have their own health insurance schemes and doesn’t pay into the statutory health insurance.
Even the people that has to pay for the statutory health insurance pays different amounts and also there’s a group of people that benefits from it even without paying a single euro for it. So it’s not universal at all. Only a certain group pays for the majority and takes on the burden
> certain professions like government workers, doctors, etc. have their own health insurance schemes <
Completely WRONG: you are mixing up "job-dedicated" pension schemes like for lawyers or doctors with the healthcare setup - in healthcare, there are only two parties: "public" healthcare ("GKV") and "private" healthcare ("PKV"), these two types are not anyhow related to the job dedicated pension schemes.
Correct is, mostly all politicians, high-earners, docs, lawyers etc. are chosing the "private" insurance version, for (at least until yet) several benefits compared to the ones using the "public" model.
You are allowed to enter the private model above a certain salary, but you are not forced. It may be cheaper for some time, but at least if kids arrive it gets fucking expensive, since in the public model your children are insured for free,while in private mode you have to pay for them.
Also handling private mode insurance is more work.
Sounds really complicated, but at the end of the day as long as everyone has health insurance that's still by definition universal health insurance, right? In particular, having "a group of people that benefits from it even without paying a single euro for it" seems mandatory for it to be truly universal.
It sounds to me like you're envisioning something different from universal healthcare, but it's not clear to me exactly what.
2 replies →
You can’t opt out from it
This is the part that makes it universal.
> Everyone pays for it as a mandatory percentage from their salaries every month as a health insurance fee. .... the higher your salary you end up paying more money to receive the same service
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sounds exactly how almost all income taxes work.
> 5$ for Netflix and other paying 50$ to watch the same shows with no change in service offering.
Counterpoint -- you pay taxes to get the full benefits that a stable society provides, which includes your ability to make any income at all. The more income you earn, the more benefit you're literally getting.
> you’re young and single, you will be punished
Don't worry, it's impossible to stay young and single forever.
> I would say Germany is a good place if you’re married and have kids. Then you get a lot of subsidies from the government and it’s relatively cheap to raise children in Germany.
The number of newborns in germany last year was lowest since WW2. Seems like most germans don't agree with this assessment.
It’s not just financials. Young people just don’t want to have that responsibility and burden and restriction of freedom that comes with having children.
You have to be optimistic about the future, to have kids. And Germans lately are targeted with propaganda, algorithmic and amplified bad news. Every kind of german-speaking media and social media is full of dread, how the country is in a "freefall", etc. I saw the same in UK pre-brexit.
Because cheap healthcare only is not a parameter for having kids (-:
My siblings have covered most of your points, but I think one gets overlooked easily:
> Think of it as one paying 5$ for Netflix and other paying 50$ to watch the same shows with no change in service offering.
This used to be the norm before department stores made fixed price popular. People would haggle, and more wealthy people usually paid more because they couldn't be bothered to haggle as much.
> The fucked up part is that the higher your salary you end up paying more money to receive the same service as someone paying way less with a lowers salary.
That's basically how all progressive taxation works?
I hate to break it to you, but you have to wait for a specialist in US as well. Months is also a quite typical wait time.
And even if you're on a princely healthcare plan - you're still out several thousand dollars for an ER visit.
But the funny thing in Germany is that if you are on private health insurance, then you can get an appointment with a specialist like tomorrow or at most within a week.
The months waiting time only applies to statutory health insurance payees and ironically they are the ones most of the time that pays a higher premium