Comment by tibbar

11 hours ago

The symbolic math software couldn't perform the integration problems he posted. Integration lacks a deterministic algorithm and therefore permits constructing challenges for stack overflow and computer algebra systems. However, there is a deterministic algorithm to go the other way.

In other words, he was posting challenges to go from X -> Y (hard). However, going from Y -> X is easy. Therefore, since he had both X and Y before posting, he could verify the solutions perfectly well. The reason why constructing (X, Y) together is easier than going from Y->X is because you can always tweak Y a bit and then work backwards to see what X falls out.

There was certainly creativity in finding (X, Y) pairs where the symbolic software couldn't go from X -> Y. However, again this is more about trial and error iteration than producing brilliant insights from scratch, which is what it appeared Cleo was doing on Stack Overflow. Again, this is just a consequence of X -> Y being hard but Y -> X being easy. It was a wonderful parlor trick that took a good deal of effort to set up.

Curiously, that makes integration a trapdoor function and a possible cryptographic primitive. Not a very practical one, but...

(It looks like OP's most recent post was deleted, but I spent some time writing this up so I'll post it anyway. The deleted post contended that Cleo never confessed to "cheating" by differentiating and then reversing the direction.)

I think you are misunderstanding something that is just implicit in the story. IE he doesn't need to "confess" this, it's a fundamental part of how the trick works.

I'll take one more stab at explaining what's going on. (Out of curiosity, are you familiar with calculus? I don't want to assume that you're not, but your comment reads as if you're not very familiar with it, so I'm going to explain things a bit better this time.)

Let's start with how the beautiful parlor trick looked to everyone else.

Random user: Asks how to integrate ABC expression.

(This is difficult, because integrate(ABC) has no general algorithm. It often requires many subtle tricks to perform a given integration, and there is no guarantee that there even is an elementary answer for integrate(ABC)).

Cleo: Answers integrate(ABC) = XYZ, with no notes.

(Wow! This obviously must have required many subtle tricks, but they are not provided!) Importantly, anyone can verify that Cleo is right, because it turns out that UndoIntegration(XYZ) => ABC is easy, and there is a deterministic algorithm to do it. So, we all can tell that Cleo's answer is correct. But how could she have done this, since the integration direction is difficult???

-----

How the parlor trick really works.

First, as you can see, if Cleo takes any random XYZ, she can easily run UndoIntegration(XYZ) => ABC, and now she knows for free that Integrate(ABC) => XYZ. The neat thing is that doing this doesn't require figuring out any of the subtle steps required to run the Integrate operation either, which is convenient since Cleo doesn't plan to post them anyway.

So then, how does Cleo find a good ABC and XYZ without being a genius who is smarter than a computer? The most important thing is to find a pair such that ComputerAlgebraSystem_Integrate(ABC) doesn't work. Since integration is generally done by a bag of tricks, there are always holes you can find. So, you can basically just do this:

1. Start with a candidate XYZ_1.

2. Run UndoIntegration(XYZ_1) => ABC_1. (Remember, this is easy.)

3. Check if ComputerAlgebraSystem_Integrate(ABC_1) works. (Also easy to check, although the computer program has to work hard.)

4. If the computer is stumped, good. We can make a StackOverflow post.

5. Otherwise, try a different XYZ_2 and go back to step 1.

This is still an interesting game, but at no point does Cleo need to come up with a crazy bag of integration tricks here, the way that everyone assumes she did when she runs the parlor trick in the forum. This is the whole point of the trick, and the reason she hid her identity.

  • > It looks like OP's most recent post was deleted

    Apologies, I had figured out what distinction you were getting at right after writing my reply, so didn't feel the need to keep my misunderstanding up. But thanks for the detailed explanation!

    Edit: Actually, I'm confused again. To be clear, it sounded to me from the discussion in the Joe McCann video that there was no tweaking the answer to get the question, i.e. that doing anything other than verification in reverse would have been against their ethic, that the answer must truly follow the question for it not to be cheating. The integral is fixed in place, and then legitimately solved by a highly competent Reshetnikov who is good at this, afforded plenty of time by scheming in advanced (as opposed to the illusion of only taking 3 hours), but is too lazy to formalize their work or is interested to see a 'clean' solution unbiased by their own approach to the problem or by the software that aided their work. And then it's verified trivially using differentiation (something symbolic math software almost never fails at), as opposed to my original misunderstanding that there still would have been uncertainty. Right?

    • The video in question [0]

      No, although he was certainly an integral enthusiast, the video does not claim that he was solving them from scratch. Rather, it says he was starting from integrals with known answers and tweaking them slightly to see if he could break the CAS. At that point, although he did apparently try to solve the resulting problems himself, he already knew roughly what the answer would look like (by comparing to the previous answer, and also to the previous solution path.)

      Specifically step 5 in my previous post is more work than it sounds, he was doing some calculations by hand, but it's like he's starting 90% of the way there and trying to do the last 10% by hand to fool the CAS. And remember, he can try as many variants of the tweak+10% as he wants until he finds something that works.

      [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gQ9DnSYsXg&t=14s

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