There are advantages to distributed infrastructure as well! You mentioned one of the biggest disadvantages.
I am thinking along the line of:
- You can just do it / upgrade it etc
- Robust against central failures for various reasons
- Resistant to those in charge of centralized infrastructure abusing their monopoly
Utility solar is also distributed if there is enough of it installed to matter for discussion. A single installation is such a tiny share of the electric load that we can ignore if for all reasons you care about distributed. (or care about solar for that matter - it is a drop in the ocean for the environment)
Utility-scale solar might be cheaper but doesn't make my house resilient to grid failures. It also only benefits me when the grid is upgraded enough that ... well, it benefits me.
Plug in solar doesn't make your house resilient to grid failures either. You would need an inverter that can generate an AC output without having an existing one to follow; a disconnect to isolate you from the grid during an outage, batteries to smooth the output, an electrician to install it, and an inspection to certify that it was all done correctly.
If you are going through all of that, there is not much benefit to plug-in solar instead of traditional.
Most of the balcony solar packages already include what you need. They include a battery and on that battery is a receptacle that will supply power if there is no mains. The dogtail that you insert into your house outlet only supplies power if there is mains, but the receptacle on the battery supplies power regardless.
So when the power goes out you unplug your fridge from the wall and plug it into the battery. In essence it operates like the standard camping battery/"solar generator", a la Jackery et al.
18.8% Nuclear and 8.4% solar (more than double the national average!)
OUC on the other hand has less than 3% Nuclear (generated / purchased from FPLs plant on Hutchinson Islans!) and <6% solar, with a massive 24% still being generated by coal! (FPL demolished their last coal plant ~8 years ago in Indiantown, I watched it live!)
So while FPL is technically for profit and OUC is not... FPL is cheaper and greener than OUC.
I say this as a long time Florida resident who remembers when FPL truly sucked in many ways. They’ve, demonstrably, put in effort to make electricity greener and cheaper here in FL. (Even with all of their efforts against home solar).
NW florida just had a hurricane. As I type this comment there are hundreds of thousands of people in the sunshine state that have no (grid scale) solar power. That from a heavily solar provider. All of my friends report that (largely) trees are down but houses and roofs are okay. Distributed solar would have a lot more people with working refrigerators and unspoiled food.
You don't even need distributed solar. A simple UPS is enough, either plugged in in front of the refrigerator or wired to the entire home via a transfer switch... and hell it's not that expensive. Battery stations capable of feeding a refrigerator for a day are less than a grand, if you don't want batteries a gas-powered generator is even cheaper.
Just how many natural disasters do Americans go through before realizing that?!
Hurricanes a much bigger natural disasters then you think. Several weeks without power isn't unheard of. The battery that runs your fridge for a day will be dead before the weather clears up enough that it is safe for workers to attempt to restore power.
These disasters are rare though for any one person - a few happen every year, but it will be years between you personally seeing a disaster. That is why generators sell out when there is a storm: even if you have a generator odds are it is rusted and won't work. It is a waste of money to buy a generator before you need it.
> Just how many natural disasters do Americans go through before realizing that?!
This is one of the most condescendingly-wrong posts I've ever seen on this site and you should be embarassed for writing it. The beginning was just typical hn hubris that I probably wouldn't have responded to, but that last jab at the end in the context of an active and ongoing emergency that you clearly know nothing about is completely insensitive and gross.
Having traveled to those areas many times to assist with recovery, slept in trucks for weeks, and made many friends in those areas: It's day four without power and that is not abnormal. Bigger storms you can go weeks without power. Batteries aren't gonna cut it.
And gas generators have a whole mess of problems.
- Gas doesn't store well. Your stored gas is gonna go bad. That means when you find out a hurricane is coming to your area you can spend your time either protecting your house or wait 3-6 hours in line to hopefully get some gas for your generator before it runs out. Maybe they are rationing to 5-10 gallons.
- They might not work after sitting for years, even when properly maintained (one of my friends had two and neither could get running even with help). Hurricane areas are humid: generators rust. If you don't use gas engines the seals dryrot. If you leave them sitting with gas in them the ethanol (sugar!) Separates out and gums it up, breaking your generator. If you stop using your generator in the wrong way then you'll break it (you need to run it dry, using/wasting all the gas in the tank).
Even if you score gas and your generator works that brings us to the next problem:
The gas stations can't pump gas if they have no power themselves. They also can't be refilled if the big gas tankers can't reach them due to trees blocking roads. Main roads become passable quickly, side roads might not work for weeks. Cell phones might be out for weeks (and modern 5g micro-sites will take even longer to get fully rebuilt across a whole county). If your close-by station can't get gas you can't just call around to fine somewhere that does. You can't just drive around either. Single lane roads mean going anywhere takes forever and you are actively hindering recovery efforts. There are still stations in florida unable to pump gas due to shortages or power loss. So your couple of gas cans got you through a couple of days, what now?
And gas generators have moving parts. They are complicated. Another friend there had theirs die the day after the hurricane. Shit happens.
There is a reason prevalence of gas geberators in hurricane areas is less than 5% (I probably hear one running for every 50 houses, but most run them only intermittently) and it isn't because they're just dumb hicks who aren't as smart as mschuster91.
Lastly, you need to know how to use one. Every time there's a hurricane someone puts it in their garage and poisons themself and their family to death. Should you know better? Yes. But everyone doesnt.
Then there's all the other ways you suddenly need to spend energy to survive: you need to boil water, sometimes for weeks (while you don't have power), you need gas for your chainsaw to clear roads/trees so that power and water can be brought back. You need to drive to get supplies. Wasting gas that could be used to recover from the disaster isn't wise.
Back on topic: A stack of solar panels that could plug into the same outlet as a fridge would be a godsend for a lot of people (while also storing better than a generator and being more compact -- so more can be trucked in after a disaster.)
It is easier to find a million people with a few hundred euros and a sunny balcony than finding one dude with a few hundred million euros and land on which building a solar farm is permitted.
With a much higher capital and regulatory hurdle. By individuals self motivated to reduce their own costs with their own small capital investment you get a power source that’s crowd sourced. It doesn’t have to be as efficient to be more effective.
Isn’t it backwards? If everyone had a little bit of home generated power, then the actual energy part of the bill becomes smaller, and the cost of transmission becomes an even greater fraction of the total cost.
And since transmission cost is typically bundled with the energy cost, it means the final retail energy price has to go up to cover the transmission cost.
With less energy drawn over the wire, the transmission cost goes down since less transmission infrastructure being used. The overall transmission cost should go down as well since there's less need to expand the transmission infrastructure.
Where I live we have Time of Day electricity pricing where the prices jump 2-3x during high demand. Panels conveniently produce the most power around this time, so this can save people money.
Utility companies are not incentivized to lower prices because it means less money for them. Do you remember when power companies told people to conserve power and then people successfully did this? And then they raised rates because they weren't making enough money? This happens in California ALL THE TIME. I've lived here 30 years in Silicon Valley and it's the biggest scam that no one talks about. It happens with electricity and water. With water its even more egregious because they told us to conserve water because of the "drought" but once the drought was over, they raised rates because people weren't using enough water. My connection fee to water is over $100/month without spending a drop of water. That's why I stopped conserving water and water my lawn every single day because it turns out that my water costs are only about 1/3 of the actual water bill costs so fuck it!
It's the same playbook over and over again, there's no incentive to lower rates at all because it's an easy way to make money over an entire population of tens of millions of people.
Now PG&E is fighting to charge solar panel owners $100+/month just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. That would make having solar panels even more expensive than not having solar panels which is utter hypocrisy but no one seems to care or point this out. It's a complete and utter scam.
EDIT: I forgot to mention last year the rates were $0.37-0.45 per kWh, until this year when they implemented a base fee of $25/month, so they lowered it to $0.33-0.45/kWh. Rates in Nevada are 1/4 of that.
2015: $0.17-0.33 per kWh
2020: $0.24-0.38 per kWh
so prices have more than doubled in 10 years. Fucking criminals.
I live in Florida, and I'm building a water battery, so I can freeze it at night when electricity rates are cheap, and use it to cool the house during the day.
The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
You wouldn't happen to be sharing this builds information publicly would you? I can fully respect however if you are not.
I am a staunch DIY serial entrepreneur techie that has used my grey goo to build and sell a few companies and my time now is spent similar to yours although using a different application of physics. I too am motivated, just as you are, in my efforts to apply what I know to further reduce my energy costs which will not stop rising for quite some time.
You really made my day with this post and I hope we can find more folks like ourselves from your share because in time 'dogfooding' new ideas at home will lead to new applicable discoveries for all.
> The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
Every system like yours works to flatten the prices, but it looks like a pretty big swing between peak and off peak pricing today, so it'll probably be a while before flat pricing again.
By that logic literally everything should be distributed. That's going to be a big undertaking to re-architect our entire civilian infrastructure against that.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I just don't see society taking that measure until it's either 1) cheaper, or 2) the threat moves from being just a threat to reality.
> 2) the threat moves from being just a threat to reality.
Completely agree. But I'm already there. Large scale economic disruption has just started. For that to remain peaceful over the next few decades would be a miracle. So we should plan for disruption, for which energy decentralization is a keystone, and the technology to make it practical is here.
California has a 600 MW Virtual Power Plant composed of Tesla Powerwall batteries in 85k homes. Central control of distributed generation removes a lot of inefficiencies. Household excess is available to the whole system.
It doesn't have to be cheaper than utility-scale. It only has to be cheaper than retail electricity.
In other words, it can be useful even if it's not the most efficient way to do it. It only has to be more efficient than the status quo.
I don't have thd capital to build utility-scale solar. I do have the capital to install residential solar. My electricity is now cheaper.
There are advantages to distributed infrastructure as well! You mentioned one of the biggest disadvantages.
I am thinking along the line of:
Plug-in solar can't do 2 by itself, and it doesn't really do 3 either.
Utility solar is also distributed if there is enough of it installed to matter for discussion. A single installation is such a tiny share of the electric load that we can ignore if for all reasons you care about distributed. (or care about solar for that matter - it is a drop in the ocean for the environment)
Utility-scale solar might be cheaper but doesn't make my house resilient to grid failures. It also only benefits me when the grid is upgraded enough that ... well, it benefits me.
Plug in solar doesn't make your house resilient to grid failures either. You would need an inverter that can generate an AC output without having an existing one to follow; a disconnect to isolate you from the grid during an outage, batteries to smooth the output, an electrician to install it, and an inspection to certify that it was all done correctly.
If you are going through all of that, there is not much benefit to plug-in solar instead of traditional.
Most of the balcony solar packages already include what you need. They include a battery and on that battery is a receptacle that will supply power if there is no mains. The dogtail that you insert into your house outlet only supplies power if there is mains, but the receptacle on the battery supplies power regardless.
So when the power goes out you unplug your fridge from the wall and plug it into the battery. In essence it operates like the standard camping battery/"solar generator", a la Jackery et al.
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These panels do not work without the grid.
(And this is intentional to avoid electrocuting line workers who are working to fix the grid when it breaks)
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Problem is for most of USA utility scale = utility profit for share holders.
For example Duke is for profit here in Florida, and charges about 25% more per KWH than OUC that is a public utility.
This leads to pricing where on one street your power bill is $250, but one street over its $200, often coming from the exact same power plant.
Duke is just excessively expensive.
FPL is also for profit, and is cheaper than OUC.
1st 1000kwh with FPL are $0.11461/kwh Above that is $0.13461/kwh with a base customer charge of $10.52
1st 1000kwh with OUC are $0.1155/kwh Above that is $0.1405 with a base customer charge of $18.50/mo
Total cost with FPL for 1000kwh for the month before state and local tax is $125.13
With OUC it would be $134.
https://www.ouc.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/09/2025_10-OUC-E...
https://www.fpl.com/content/dam/fplgp/us/en/rates/pdf/reside...
The biggest factor Id say is FPL has significant amounts of solar and nuclear generation.
https://www.fpl.com/content/dam/fplgp/us/en/news/2025/fpl-ne...
18.8% Nuclear and 8.4% solar (more than double the national average!)
OUC on the other hand has less than 3% Nuclear (generated / purchased from FPLs plant on Hutchinson Islans!) and <6% solar, with a massive 24% still being generated by coal! (FPL demolished their last coal plant ~8 years ago in Indiantown, I watched it live!)
https://www.floridapsc.com/pscfiles/website-files/PDF/Utilit...
So while FPL is technically for profit and OUC is not... FPL is cheaper and greener than OUC.
I say this as a long time Florida resident who remembers when FPL truly sucked in many ways. They’ve, demonstrably, put in effort to make electricity greener and cheaper here in FL. (Even with all of their efforts against home solar).
NW florida just had a hurricane. As I type this comment there are hundreds of thousands of people in the sunshine state that have no (grid scale) solar power. That from a heavily solar provider. All of my friends report that (largely) trees are down but houses and roofs are okay. Distributed solar would have a lot more people with working refrigerators and unspoiled food.
You don't even need distributed solar. A simple UPS is enough, either plugged in in front of the refrigerator or wired to the entire home via a transfer switch... and hell it's not that expensive. Battery stations capable of feeding a refrigerator for a day are less than a grand, if you don't want batteries a gas-powered generator is even cheaper.
Just how many natural disasters do Americans go through before realizing that?!
Hurricanes a much bigger natural disasters then you think. Several weeks without power isn't unheard of. The battery that runs your fridge for a day will be dead before the weather clears up enough that it is safe for workers to attempt to restore power.
These disasters are rare though for any one person - a few happen every year, but it will be years between you personally seeing a disaster. That is why generators sell out when there is a storm: even if you have a generator odds are it is rusted and won't work. It is a waste of money to buy a generator before you need it.
> Just how many natural disasters do Americans go through before realizing that?!
This is one of the most condescendingly-wrong posts I've ever seen on this site and you should be embarassed for writing it. The beginning was just typical hn hubris that I probably wouldn't have responded to, but that last jab at the end in the context of an active and ongoing emergency that you clearly know nothing about is completely insensitive and gross.
Having traveled to those areas many times to assist with recovery, slept in trucks for weeks, and made many friends in those areas: It's day four without power and that is not abnormal. Bigger storms you can go weeks without power. Batteries aren't gonna cut it.
And gas generators have a whole mess of problems.
- Gas doesn't store well. Your stored gas is gonna go bad. That means when you find out a hurricane is coming to your area you can spend your time either protecting your house or wait 3-6 hours in line to hopefully get some gas for your generator before it runs out. Maybe they are rationing to 5-10 gallons.
- They might not work after sitting for years, even when properly maintained (one of my friends had two and neither could get running even with help). Hurricane areas are humid: generators rust. If you don't use gas engines the seals dryrot. If you leave them sitting with gas in them the ethanol (sugar!) Separates out and gums it up, breaking your generator. If you stop using your generator in the wrong way then you'll break it (you need to run it dry, using/wasting all the gas in the tank).
Even if you score gas and your generator works that brings us to the next problem:
The gas stations can't pump gas if they have no power themselves. They also can't be refilled if the big gas tankers can't reach them due to trees blocking roads. Main roads become passable quickly, side roads might not work for weeks. Cell phones might be out for weeks (and modern 5g micro-sites will take even longer to get fully rebuilt across a whole county). If your close-by station can't get gas you can't just call around to fine somewhere that does. You can't just drive around either. Single lane roads mean going anywhere takes forever and you are actively hindering recovery efforts. There are still stations in florida unable to pump gas due to shortages or power loss. So your couple of gas cans got you through a couple of days, what now?
And gas generators have moving parts. They are complicated. Another friend there had theirs die the day after the hurricane. Shit happens.
There is a reason prevalence of gas geberators in hurricane areas is less than 5% (I probably hear one running for every 50 houses, but most run them only intermittently) and it isn't because they're just dumb hicks who aren't as smart as mschuster91.
Lastly, you need to know how to use one. Every time there's a hurricane someone puts it in their garage and poisons themself and their family to death. Should you know better? Yes. But everyone doesnt.
Then there's all the other ways you suddenly need to spend energy to survive: you need to boil water, sometimes for weeks (while you don't have power), you need gas for your chainsaw to clear roads/trees so that power and water can be brought back. You need to drive to get supplies. Wasting gas that could be used to recover from the disaster isn't wise.
Back on topic: A stack of solar panels that could plug into the same outlet as a fridge would be a godsend for a lot of people (while also storing better than a generator and being more compact -- so more can be trucked in after a disaster.)
I'm sure it's cheaper to somebody. But with home solar, I can actually cut my power bill by a noticeable fraction.
It is easier to find a million people with a few hundred euros and a sunny balcony than finding one dude with a few hundred million euros and land on which building a solar farm is permitted.
In the US collective action is difficult given how compromised our political system is from regulatory capture and lobbying.
This is a nice grassroots technology that lets motivated individuals take action.
With a much higher capital and regulatory hurdle. By individuals self motivated to reduce their own costs with their own small capital investment you get a power source that’s crowd sourced. It doesn’t have to be as efficient to be more effective.
Last I checked the biggest cost in the electric bill is transmission, by a wide margin. Home generated power however small helps everyone.
Isn’t it backwards? If everyone had a little bit of home generated power, then the actual energy part of the bill becomes smaller, and the cost of transmission becomes an even greater fraction of the total cost.
And since transmission cost is typically bundled with the energy cost, it means the final retail energy price has to go up to cover the transmission cost.
With less energy drawn over the wire, the transmission cost goes down since less transmission infrastructure being used. The overall transmission cost should go down as well since there's less need to expand the transmission infrastructure.
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Where I live we have Time of Day electricity pricing where the prices jump 2-3x during high demand. Panels conveniently produce the most power around this time, so this can save people money.
It's not and it will NEVER be.
Utility companies are not incentivized to lower prices because it means less money for them. Do you remember when power companies told people to conserve power and then people successfully did this? And then they raised rates because they weren't making enough money? This happens in California ALL THE TIME. I've lived here 30 years in Silicon Valley and it's the biggest scam that no one talks about. It happens with electricity and water. With water its even more egregious because they told us to conserve water because of the "drought" but once the drought was over, they raised rates because people weren't using enough water. My connection fee to water is over $100/month without spending a drop of water. That's why I stopped conserving water and water my lawn every single day because it turns out that my water costs are only about 1/3 of the actual water bill costs so fuck it!
It's the same playbook over and over again, there's no incentive to lower rates at all because it's an easy way to make money over an entire population of tens of millions of people.
Now PG&E is fighting to charge solar panel owners $100+/month just for the privilege of being connected to the grid. That would make having solar panels even more expensive than not having solar panels which is utter hypocrisy but no one seems to care or point this out. It's a complete and utter scam.
EDIT: I forgot to mention last year the rates were $0.37-0.45 per kWh, until this year when they implemented a base fee of $25/month, so they lowered it to $0.33-0.45/kWh. Rates in Nevada are 1/4 of that.
2015: $0.17-0.33 per kWh
2020: $0.24-0.38 per kWh
so prices have more than doubled in 10 years. Fucking criminals.
I live in Florida, and I'm building a water battery, so I can freeze it at night when electricity rates are cheap, and use it to cool the house during the day.
The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
You wouldn't happen to be sharing this builds information publicly would you? I can fully respect however if you are not.
I am a staunch DIY serial entrepreneur techie that has used my grey goo to build and sell a few companies and my time now is spent similar to yours although using a different application of physics. I too am motivated, just as you are, in my efforts to apply what I know to further reduce my energy costs which will not stop rising for quite some time.
You really made my day with this post and I hope we can find more folks like ourselves from your share because in time 'dogfooding' new ideas at home will lead to new applicable discoveries for all.
Stay Healthy!
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> The day after the system goes live, they'll probably announce flat rates for any time of day, just to f' with me. :(
Every system like yours works to flatten the prices, but it looks like a pretty big swing between peak and off peak pricing today, so it'll probably be a while before flat pricing again.
We should build now in anticipation of drone warfare. Utility-scale solar is easier to take out. Same as natural disasters.
The more stable you think the future will be, the more you want to capture the efficiency of central power.
By that logic literally everything should be distributed. That's going to be a big undertaking to re-architect our entire civilian infrastructure against that.
I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, I just don't see society taking that measure until it's either 1) cheaper, or 2) the threat moves from being just a threat to reality.
> 2) the threat moves from being just a threat to reality.
Completely agree. But I'm already there. Large scale economic disruption has just started. For that to remain peaceful over the next few decades would be a miracle. So we should plan for disruption, for which energy decentralization is a keystone, and the technology to make it practical is here.
California has a 600 MW Virtual Power Plant composed of Tesla Powerwall batteries in 85k homes. Central control of distributed generation removes a lot of inefficiencies. Household excess is available to the whole system.
4 replies →