Comment by 1-more
5 days ago
> You hit a point in your life, reflect back on where you'd thought you'd be when you were in your early 20s, and think.. shit.. what I do all of this for?
Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield. Probably knock off in the next 20 minutes and take him to Home Depot to look at some bullshit because we have a good time with that kind of thing.
Yes, men who have children do go through nihilistic existential mid life crises too. That age has their biggest risk of cheating on their partners, fathering new children with work colleagues, walking away from marriage, developing drug and alcohol dependency, developing serious gambling problems and other worse things. Parenthood reduces but does not eliminate the risk of suicide in middle aged men, and parenthood plus long term joblessness is a common cause.
Midlife anxieties are real and nothing in particular prevents it.
In many cases having kids often causes more depression due to lack of money and increased responsibilities.
I can imagine having kids is super rewarding, but also amplifies the pressure of being a provider probably 100x. In uncertain times, I think a lot of us aren't sure how we'll provide for ourselves in ~5 years, let alone a tiny dude, which plays into the decision to not have kids.
I'm still gainfully employed, and business is ripping, but a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year. So part of me is extremely glad I don't have kids right now, and part of me is really angry that everything feeling so unstable is leading to our decision to not have them. I know that even in the best time it's a scary decision, but the general vibe is flipping people (like my wife and i) who are at the margin.
I am in this awkward situation where I just had a baby, but at the same time feel I should work less and put less effort into work. But at the same time not being able to slow down.
I daydream about being fired with severance so I can spend more time with my little dude. But also deadly afraid of not being able to get another job when savings run out.
Congrats on baby and best of luck balancing this. In my limited experience it's the balancing that is the actual work that allows all the other domestic and professional work for this part of my life.
Welcome to fatherhood.
> a huge part of my value as a professional got totally vaporized over the last year
We are all descendants of like 1,000 individuals who kept having lil babies through an ice age. There are mobile home parks full of happy kids dotting my town, populated by people who paint houses and do landscaping and make ends meet. I have no idea what your profession is or what your housing situation is, so maybe that's already where you are. My wife and I talk gratitude a lot, and that includes being grateful that if we had to dig ditches to keep a double wide over our heads, we'd go ahead and do that and have some giggles with our little miracle in there.
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I don't dismiss or discount your perspective but based on my social circle: Your experience of fatherhood is not the median. The variance is pretty high too.
I agree. I'm a father of two, and my existence didn't suddenly get meaningful when I had children. I always found it meaningful, only in the sense that I get one life and want to experience as much as I can while I have it. That is a big part of why I chose to have children, it seemed like basically *the* fundamental life experience. But for me, I didn't experience this sudden big gain in meaning that a lot of online fathers seem to have.
I also wasn't prepared for a bit of a curve ball and I have experienced a loss of self that hasn't recovered or been compensated for yet.
I often wish I felt like a lot of other online fathers, but I take comfort in knowing there are a lot of others out there like me who struggle with parenthood. I hope I figure it all out in time!
Only one kid and I can't pretend it is all sunshine and rainbows, but there are real moments that make some of the other things irrelevant. It is possible that I went into fatherhood older and with eyes wide open so it was less of an adjustment, but it still surprised me in how things slowly re-aligned. Meaning was basically a side-effect of near exclusive focus on someone else ( for me ).
And that was my long way to say, the struggle is real and we are all figuring it out in real time. gl out there
I’m grateful for your comment. I’m also a father of two, and the “loss of self” has frankly worsened over time (though my oldest isn’t even 4 yet).
After the second, I thought it would get better, and that a Contented Doting Father would emerge from the ruins of my previous life. That the attention and effort required would simply obliterate any trace of my past self, and with it, any longing for the spontaneity and lightness and frankly selfishness of my child-free life.
But that hasn’t happened. There are moments of grace and joy, and I love my kids so deeply it’s painful (he says, truthfully, but defensively, because an admission like this from a father usually doesn’t go over well).
But counterintuitively, returning to the topic of the thread, if I DO lose my career, I will be doubly grateful for my kids. Because they DO love me unconditionally, and I them; they don’t care about status games or anomie or anything resembling a “career.” Perhaps starting over in a new field and moving to a cheaper COL area would finally clear space for the Contented Doting Father.
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Kids loose interest in you as they age and do their own stuff. You are necessary for their survival, but they prefer company of peers. And then they leave.
All of that is normal, but you are left alone and if taking the kid somewhere was your only thing, you have nothing.
that's what I felt about moving to a different country, too, until I didn't.
I think these things are less consistent than is often stated, we just see them occur consistently among people with similar lives. The "mid life crisis" is also debunked and replaced by "existential crisis" since it can actually occur at any age, from teenager to elderly, and zero, one, or multiple times. Only in the classic life progression of a certain era, it typically occurred worst at around 40-45 so it got that label.
I would think those with kids at that age that wanted them worked backwards from that mission, and if they have a midlife crisis it's some version of having spent too much time working and on their kid and start spending their money on low-impact possibly expensive hobbies they'd have liked to do in their younger years, somewhat in denial of the fact that they sold their whole life to the man despite raising a kid.
But that sounds nice! Let me reword: after getting through the messy middle of establishing a career and weathering the insane time and money necessary to rear a young kid, a dude finds himself with a little more time and money, and doesn't know what to do with himself. He gets a fishing rod/road bike/membership at makerspace/skein of nice yarn and some circular needles/signs up for his first powerlifting meet. He makes new friends, shows his kid a new side of himself, and maybe gets a nice steelhead/race trinket/dining table/scarf/medal out of the whole thing.
Sure, seems like it would be a standard path in another time. The real personal crisis in that position these days is probably being forced to find a new career instead of or alongside raising a kid. Unless you get quite lucky, things can get dark very quickly. Job loss creates stress, prolonged unemployment might break up your relationship, lose access to the kid maybe, and suddenly you're destitute. It's hard to see prospects for normal people getting better, and it makes more sense to avoid the kid and the house.
Yeah, that's an adaptive use for the impulse. Sometimes people go for destructive ones instead.
> Do people who say this have kids? I ask genuinely. Everything before my little dude was fake. Everything since him is real deal Holyfield.
He's gonna grow up and ask you what the fuck were you thinking?
Kids will not always be kids.
I had two kiddos by the time I as 23 and I'm in my late 40s now. I am super glad that they are off on their own, living their own successful lives and I am very proud of them.
You too will (hopefully) watch your children move away.
Personally, when I am down I've been feeling a little like I've finished the main quest in a video game. I can look to my kiddos and be happy that they are doing okay but I still have almost as much adult life in front of me as I have behind me.
While the philosophy degree I got when I was young has helped a lot, I'm middle age, twice-divorced, and haven't had (or needed) a "regular" job, bald (well, I rock a skullet and have 'aura' according to the youngesters), and I can't rock climb as hard as I used to. I don't really enjoy drinking anymore, and I don't enjoy many drugs at all. I've gotten to a position where it's hard to maintain the fantasies that make romantic partners appealing, and while I have deep and diverse friend groups, I still spend most of my time in a shack in the middle of nowhere writing music for no one.
When people shit-talk on humanities educations, it's been hard to keep my mouth shut because the real payoffs have been in being able to meet the long and large world with some equanimity and I feel incredibly privileged to have been so misguided in my early life that I got a deep and canonical education.
There are plenty of things that I can do- keeping with the video game metaphor, I feel like I am working through all possible side quests on hard mode. Being emancipated from my children means that I no longer have to earn very much money or even maintain a stable home if I don't enjoy it.
I bought some off grid land in the middle of nowhere and I am slowly getting utilities working in the shacks. I started doing way more direct political action, including getting an EMT cert so I could volunteer at the local free clinic. I have 4 bands and play 5-6 gigs a month and run an A/V company where I do another 2-3 gigs a month.
So, yeah, I've got a pretty good skill set, I have however easy a life that I choose, lots of engagement in my enclosure. I have kids I am proud of.
And even looking at all that, I look at even a couple of years and sometimes wonder "shit.. what I do all of this for?". And I know that in another 25 years I will still probably asking that question, wondering if there had been a better way to do the things.
Enjoy browsing stuff with your kiddos. That is indeed the important kind of activity. But also, understand that you too will (hopefully) face existential choices in the future.
Yeah I think having him later in my life and him still being a toddler just means "having kids" means wildly different things in our cases. In my case, the life altering pivots (getting sober, married, divorced) happened before meeting my wife with whom I had him. I guess I got extremely lucky having the nuclear life changer of a baby show up at the age where such a thing is welcome. We just started touring preschools and the rapid approach of a time where I'm not within 30 feet of him for 90% of the day is already a pretty daunting prospect.
Yes. Come on, I love my kid, but you can't seriously be asking this question. Fatherhood is in fact sometimes part of what they're so dissatisfied with.
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> The only thing keeping me alive is the idea of revenge against the people who insult us like this.
Pretty major red flag there. As an awkward, small, unattractive teen I could've related. Yet the best thing was letting it go and finding other people whom I could connect with.
FWIW, social status comes from “interestingness” rather than the pure application of time and money. Anything that is mostly grinding (a few million, muscles, etc) doesn’t clear that threshold. At best it checks a box.
If there isn’t a compelling story behind it, it probably doesn’t convey social status. Poor people with interesting lives often have far more success in the dating market than “successful” people that are indistinguishable from every other successful person. It is less about collecting credentials and more about writing a story that people want to read.
Fortunately, the bar for this is low. Most people have done few interesting things in their entire lives despite abundant opportunity. Many people that have lived interesting lives fail to tell the story. Having time and money expands the kind of story you can write but you still need the courage to live it.
I wish I would have figured this out earlier in my life than I did.
I've travelled around the world, lived in 4 countries, read hundreds of books, I played guitar. Only thing I don't have is smoking and tattoos.
I'm just slightly autistic, which is barely visible, but makes me socially untalented, I make small mistakes or don't notice clues, and here I am, 43, hating everyone. A small communication handicap at the beginning, that society took as an excuse to fail my life entirely. I'm happy to have lived so far, I couldn't guess at an earlier age how lengths people go hurting their fellow citizen.
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I don't doubt that social media and dating apps may have broken the "market", but if you're living for revenge then women can probably pick up on that.
Correct, I'm not hoping much anymore, just doing my job of fulfilling each quest to say I didn't leave any stone unturned.
I just know the end in the story: I end up excluded.
With a few millions in the bank I'd retire to Asia and live off interests. I guarantee you wouldn't be treated like shit.
It goes both ways.
Guys that do have families are willing to give up a lot too. Things I was never really willing to give up.
I have dated a lot and there is one woman I would have wanted kids with. She wasn't into that with me though.
That is not a problem with the woman, that is a problem with me.
I know a few guys in this same situation. It is not a problem with the dating market, it is a type of narcissism that clouds judgement and sets standards that can't be met.
It is hard to see it in yourself until you get a vasectomy.
I guess it's hard to understand what women want...
CEO could mean no free time to spend with her. Muscular for what? Are you climbing or doing some other interesting sport or just spend time at the gym?
A lot of money, but are you doing something good with it? Helping people? At least some women think that's admirable.
I don't know you personally, so it's just some general vibe I've gotten from your post. No offense, maybe none of this is you but if it is it might be worth thinking about.
Most people who are saying this to you are in a similar situation like yourself, but with that missing element you have.
If you have money, but they don't, then they think there must be your fault, because if they had money, they wouldn't be in this situation.
If you're muscular, but they're not, then they think if they were muscular, they wouldn't be in this situation.
The biggest insult in the incel community is not someone who gets laid, but that someone is a volcel larping as an incel (purely as an attempt to demoralize them)
I do agree that the dating market is broken, but only men can find a way out of this. And those women want to be saved too, just not the way you think.
I'm sorry, but it's pretty hard to believe that you have all these qualities and are still alone because of women or whatever. I've met so many horrible men that are married and have a family, and they are not millionaires, muscular or providers.
The world is large. I will say what I used to say when people complained about how awful dating was pre social media, if you are shopping at a bar, it is like shopping in the gutter, you may find a gem but more often it is shit.
There are alot of women who want kids but they likely are not in the pool you engage with. Go to a conservative US christian state, join a church, engage with the community, it is easy. I bet the issue is that you do in fact have a standard and that standard is the barrier.
If it helps, almost every wealthy man i have known engaged with escorts or prostitutes at some point so I wouldnt view it as shameful and who knows, you may learn something about yourself in the process.
> Go to a conservative US christian state, join a church
While this strategy can work, it also means your kids will likely be taught hell is a real place most of humanity will go to suffer in eternal flames. (Possibly from a very young age.) Does not help with mental health.
Red states also have quite a lot of racism, IME. So be sure to be at least passing as white and with little or no accent.
> I bet the issue is that you do in fact have a standard and that standard is the barrier.
Among the guys I've known this seems to be the biggest factor. Of course ladies have their own expectations. Everyone seems to relax them as they get older.
I don't think posting like Elliot Rodgers helps, my dude.
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> So actually I think the real solution to these problems is actually banning birth control.
Anytime where someone thinks the solution to a problem is taking away choices from another group it's time to be very very suspicious to say the least.
There's a lot of points in this post that are common talking points in the "manosphere":
> you get a lot of single men who want to kill themselves and a lot of single women who are fine with being single
> What’s happening is a population crisis. Women don’t get with men, men are frustrated but also there’s no children.
These are not widely accepted viewpoints.
It's impossible to prove or disprove something like these are "wrong" or "right", but blaming women for male unhappiness is a prime tactic that is very similar to the common tactic of blaming an outgroup. It's not a good thing!
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This isn’t historically true. Women used to work outside the home, it’s a relatively recent phenomenon that the nuclear family with a stay at home mother was the norm. So the basis of your argument is false
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dude, you need to escape the manosphere
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