Comment by Goronmon
4 days ago
All I can think with this whole situation is how much time is wasted by people getting angry and defensive on behalf of a Valve. It's almost like people have a parasocial relationship with the application itself.
That's not even getting to some of the "missing" features.
No Community marketplace for in-game items
No Direct player-to-player item trading
No Digital trading cards, levelling, and points shop
I hope more application developers "forget" to add these features.
People have wasted their time defending their platform's "honour" for decades. It used to be Sega vs Nintendo. Then it was PlayStation vs XBox. Now it's Steam vs EGS.
Anyway, what are useful features of Steam:
- their dedication to getting Windows games running on Linux (to see off the existential threat Microsoft poses to them, but nonetheless greatly appreciated)
- community forums / screenshots / artwork / guides etc. for every product. Very useful if the game vendor doesn't have its own, and most game vendors don't
- that Steam Sales encourage vendors to offer games at much more reasonable prices (e.g. a few pounds/dollars/etc.) for what is effectively a license, revocable at any time, not a real purchase. £60? Ha ha fuck off, I'm waiting for the sale when it's £5
- also, as far as I've seen, every game distributed can still be downloaded today. People may complain that publishers update a title e.g. to remove licensed music 10 years later... but you can still download the old version with some trickery. And I've never seen Steam actively remove downloads for existing customers, I've only seen games removed from the store so no future customers
- pirates have found that most games, if their only DRM is Steamworks, are incredibly easy to crack. I am very glad Steam has convinced most publishers to use that alone and nothing worse, and I curse publishers who insist on their own DRM, their own launcher, etc. If Valve goes tits-up, I have a lot of confidence most of peoples libraries will still be playable with a little bit of cracking.
There are other useful features, even if Valve is getting rich and fat off selling gambling and day-trading to teenagers.
I think the "fanboyism" of Steam is a bit different to platform wars like PS vs Xbox, etc.
Fundamentally Valve has built up a lot of trust with the gaming community, and other than microtransactions and gambling, I think it's very fair to say they've been a net good for both the PC gaming community; as well as the ecosystem.
Proton is a great example.
Valve have my trust just by being privately held company that can actually plan for decades ahead instead of try to appease major shareholders or black rock.
It took them 10 years to make Linux a competetive gaming platform.
They invested in VR early and still do a lot for this niche market.
They brought back hanfheld PC from being niche chinese devices to being mainstrean and maintain support for Steam Deck for 5 years.
As game developer I do find 30% cut abysmal, but it's not any worse than consoles and I dont like Epic as a gamer for being awfully anti-consumer. I certainly dont want PC game market to be controlled by chinese Tencent subsidiaries.
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This is a strange comment when the biggest problem plaguing video games is microtransactions. I still don't get how Valve gets a pass on having some of the most psychotic and exploitative microtransactions in the world, but I'm supposed to be mad at Xbox for thinking about adding ads.
Don't forget big picture mode. Nowadays Steam is a better game console than an actual game console. That's the only way I use it anymore.
...and the hardware ecosystem, too. I just got my Steam controller last week, and it's wonderful. It's so good I'm playing Civ with it. Civ! On a gamepad!
> unmodderated community forums
FTFY. Steam forums are a cesspoll most often than not. No, we do not want a easy accessible place where people can spew their crap on the internet. It's either moderated and useful or it shouldn't exists.
Really depends on which game, and yes the forums are moderated by Steam staff, who at least understand the role correctly (internet janitor, not little personal fiefdom)
To pick a random game's forum: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1623940/discussions/ we find:
- bug reports, feedback to the devs, etc.
- asking for help in the game
- story discussion
- requests for games like this one
- concern troll (locked)
- begging for the game to be released on GOG
Seems above board to me. I've also seen plenty of trolling, incivility and unreasonable expectations from manchildren, but they tend to get locked.
The very last thing I want is more officious moderators on my forumns.
Ahh yes, we need more hall monitors and thought police on steam forums! That will surely improve the platform!
Its nice to see someone with this opinion. Im not a prolific user of the Epic Game Store, but when people go on about all the missing features its mostly a lot of cruft that I really don't want. Game ratings/reviews and the "join a game" friend functionality are the only things that I would miss, at a glance, and reviews are mostly covered elsewhere.
First thing in the article: "this is such a good day to be a sweeney hater" I don't even want to know what this means, dude needs to get a hobby.
Tim Sweeney is the CEO of Epic Games. [0]
I personally have no respect for him.
Few years ago he made exclusive deals with game producers so their game could only be purchased through Epic's store for one year. Number of these games were already listed on Steam with pre-purchase ability before the agreement. Steam did the right thing and fulfilled any refund request that was made via pre-purchase.
There were a few games I was looking forward to but was blind sided. Being a Linux only gamer, Epic launcher was pure trash. A year after the exclusive deal was over, I never bought any of the games. Those studios are effectively dead to me.
I personally will never fund Tim Sweeney.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Sweeney
Increasingly, I wish Valve was less propriety. GOG is the correct business model. While they do great things for linux (steam input, proton), I wish these were far less tied to the application.
Without competition Valve would never have bothered making Steam faster. Steam hasn't meaningfully changed in a decade, and feels well out of date. I celebrate Epic forcing Valve to finally make some improvements. Turns out they could do it in a day all along.
> Steam hasn't meaningfully changed in a decade
They completely rewrote their UI? Do you not remember the old library? The old downloads page? The old big picture mode? You may be suffering from selective memory
Old UI was better
I dont care about faster startup times for steam, as long as its under a minute.
If any big company want a good steam alternative we would have it.
Every alternative launcher, uplay/ubisoft connect, origin/ea app, epic games, gog started with a store platform and stopped. Its like the marketing team just looked at the store but not at the rest of the steam features.
It's funny how Steam has had like, what, 5 competitors in this space (Ubisoft whatever, Origin/EA whatever, Battle.net, GOG, Epic Games), and none have even got close to Steam marketshare or feature set.
Ubisoft and EA have more or less surrendered. Battle.net is distinct enough with a group of exclusives including WoW to keep going. GoG is kept alive by its one single USP, and its launcher isn't even relevant to that, so it's just there, not really doing anything. Epic is seemingly trying to compete against Steam, but seems blind to the reasons why people like Steam.
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I "defend" valve because they're seemingly the only company that cares about the end-user linux experience.
Rocket league used to have a Linux build, then epic decided to kill that off entirely.
I recently bought the steam frame. It's years past when I would have wanted this VR headset the most, but half the reason I bought it was to support Valve's R&D with Linux desktop support, arm JIT translation, etc.
People bitch and moan about "voting with your wallet", then you have a company that tons of people continually vote with their wallet for, then people complain about others defending the one company that doesn't seem to want to screw their userbase over.
Sure Steam has some blind spots for the very sweaty semi-pro gamer. I don't care about virtual stickers and little treats. I care that all my games run on my Linux desktop after years of devs not giving a shit and other companies being openly hostile.
Valves competitors suck. Their VR competitor is Meta which in a just world would not exist as an organization. Their gaming marketplace competitor is Epic, which produces the character-slop extraction shooter and a launcher that gets more annoying to use every time I open it.
The other "competitors" if you can even call them that, are microsoft who has basically deleted a dozen game studios in the last year via moneyball, and other game companies like EA and Ubisoft who routinely delete purchased games and tell the users to go suck it.
Valve is basically the only company out there who is resisting the constant urge to make everything shitty to increase investor profits. They stay private and everyone loves what they do with that power. I'm sure a ton of fail-son PE bros are dying for the chance to buy out valve and turn everything it's ever done to absolute dogshit. We'd be getting half-life 3, 4, 5, 6, mobile, etc and they'd all be shit.
I "defend" valve because they're seemingly the only company that cares about the end-user linux experience.
Why bother defending them about this specific issue though?
Either Epic is right, and this pushes Valve to improve Steam performance.
Or Epic is wrong, and then who cares? People will continue to not use the Epic store and continue to use Steam.
It just feels more "defensive" then "defending" if that framing makes sense.
I think the commenter was addressing your initial comment about fanboyism (or more charitably, being fans of) Steam.
People are fans of Steam (of Valve, actually) because Steam has been a boon for the gaming world and for Linux gaming in particular, in a way others (like Epic) haven't. I subscribe to this opinion. I'm just so glad gaming on Linux is mostly seamless now, I simply don't care anymore for which OS a game was built (within reason... but then again, Windows games are not guaranteed to always run on Windows either!).
> Why bother defending them about this specific issue though?
Because it doesn't matter, it's a nonsensical complaint to wait 10 whole seconds for your game program to start, in the wake of literally all the other shit it offers. Even if they sped it up, it still doesn't matter.
Epic launcher starting faster doesn't matter because they don't do anything that would make me want to open the epic launcher.
hear, hear!
I think in this case people just really hate Epic.
I do genuinely dislike their game launcher, but also I don't want to have multiple game launchers even if it was working well given it's just overhead.
I'll happily pay to have a game on Steam vs getting it for free on Epic. Steam has been a good experience for me the past 2+ decades :)
I'd love to see governments decouple distribution and production in media - roughly, let any streaming service serve any tv/film, let any game service serve any game ... consumer's choice.
It would be under a 'most-favoured nation' type deal, after an initial launch period (exclusive distribution for 1 year, say) if my distribution service pays the same per-view amount then I can stream/distribute your media regardless of your deals. If a producer/creator makes a work available they are required to allow it on other registered channels (no setup cost beyond actual price of downloading the content).
Essentially make rights holders honour the idea that they'd make works S available if only people would pay.
Refuse to make a work available and you'd get a warning, then it enters the public domain. The copyright deal is "things enter the pubic domain after a limited monopoly to allow recompense", enforce it. So, if eg Netflix/Sony/BBC/etc stop offering their back catalogue then the works enter the public domain.
I wouldnt mind Epic if their platform wasn't so intentionally anti-consumer. I dont have any issues with Epic other products - I dont play Fortnite, but Unreal was net positive for gamedev and Epic also sponsored a lot of open sourcr software including Godot which is nice of them.
Unfortunately literally everything is wrong with EGS specifically.
Their stance on intentionally not having user reviews because consumers shouldn't have power to react to publisher or developers decisions.
Their giving away games for free and then revoking licenses then removing them from accounts even though it was purely their own fault. They were most successful company ever back then and could certainly eat that loss.
Their shitty account system that certainly got hacked multiple times because it's the only gaming platform where someone constantly trying to access my accounts even though I'm Linux and cybersecurity nerd with random 32-char passwords. They also dont have straightforward way to change account region without trying to deal with their shitty support.
Tim Sweeney decided to make a platform to fuck over gamers and we gamers returned favour.
luckily, epic is worth hating.
> No User-written text reviews
Everything you don’t like, you can avoid.
One of the top post on the steam sub reddit is titled "They got us guys." as if they work for Valve.
Bonus points, this is the text from the post.
> How out of touch can you be as a company, this is embarrassing
Steam client is INFINITELY faster than Epic client, across those dimensions.
BTW Gaben is my friend and I identify as Dr Gordon Freeman.
/s
Parasocial relationships are a byproduct of the technology you (I assume) and I have and continue to create & roll-out to society, increasing physical distance from actual humans as well as increasing "in the head, only" identity, or identities, that culture carries with itself more and more.
> Parasocial relationships are a byproduct of the technology you
I very very much doubt this. Tools are what sets us apart from other animals. We have dedicated bits of brain for it. The relation between humans and tools, having importance to us, is why we're special. That relation goes way back, with evolutionary pressure the whole way, when losing a tool meant you were in a very bad situation, probably dead, unless you replaced it.
People named ships, swords, etc, going way back in history. There are fables about dedications to tools. It's not some modern thing.
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