Comment by JumpCrisscross
4 days ago
> Murdered people can't vote. People forced off their land and over an artificially created border can't vote
Sure. But this also describes a lot of well-accepted democracies' histories.
Perhaps you're thinking of a liberal democracy?
> would argue that it was not
Sure, according to a personal definition that countries cease to be democracies any time they go to war (or more narrowly, commit war crimes), Israel is not a democracy...
> there were many other classes not allowed to vote at the time
Most democracies also prohibit children and non-citizens from voting. The term you may be looking for is full democracy. And I think most people and experts agree Israel is not a full democracy [1].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Economist_Democracy_Index
> Most democracies also prohibit children and non-citizens from voting
In the case of Israel these 'non-citizens' are under brutal military occupation where each day Israel steals more and more of their land. There's no 'home country' they could return to because Israel is occupying it. They're not illegal immigrants. They ARE home and yet being treated by Israel like invaders.
> They ARE home and yet being treated by Israel like invaders
Which is illiberal and flawed. It doesn't mean Israeli citizens don't democratically choose their leaders.
Note that this cuts both ways. If Israel isn't a democracy, the Israeli people have no moral culpability in their state's actions because we have no way of knowing if they actually support it.
> There's no 'home country' they could return to because Israel is occupying it
Agree this is tragic. But again, historically not unique. Displaced people have existed across the history of democracy.
Something being wrong doesn't automatically make it all kinds of wrong. Israel illegally occupying the West Bank and Gaza and having unresolved reparations around the Nakba doesn't have much relevance to whether it's a democracy. Just whether it's a liberal or full one. (Among all of the other issues.)
Democracy doesn't mean voters can't choose to be awful.
Sure, you can always slice it in a way to make it look like a democracy. There's elections within the Politburo too, or Iran, which is a Republic after all. It was true of South Africa too.
I am happy to call Israel an ethno-supremacist, apartheid democracy if you want.
> Agree this is tragic. But again, historically not unique.
Sure, the Holocaust was 'historically not unique' too. Aren't we meant to be moving forward as humanity? Slavery was legal for most of history too.
> If Israel isn't a democracy, the Israeli people have no moral culpability in their state's actions because we have no way of knowing if they actually support it.
The Palestinians don't have any moral culpability in their own genocide and ethnic cleansing. That's the point, they can't vote on their own land.
> Most democracies also prohibit non-citizens from voting.
I mean we're talking about all Black people, Indigenous people and women! I think arguing semantics isn't helpful.
Israel is an illegitimate state practicing crimes against humanity. That some of the colonizers can vote isn't really relevant. I actually think this can help us reflect on the true nature of the US as well and push for things like land back to Indigenous people and reparations for Black people.
> we're talking about all Black people, Indigenous people and women
Yes. Athens was similar–a minority of the population could vote. It was a deeply flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless.
> That some of the colonizers can vote isn't really relevant
Literally America! Also all of Europe depending on when you draw the line. Also all of the Middle East for the same reason. (Also most extant Native American tribes.) Hell, even in Palestine we can only say more than 50% of the population traces from Bronze-Age heritage.
By your definition, democracy does not exist and cannot exist in most parts of the world.
> this can help us reflect on the true nature of the US
It really can't if we're redefining precedented terms. America, like Israel, is a flawed democracy.