Comment by hbogert
18 hours ago
Ah yes the nice EU experiment where it uses the Netherlands for as their experimentation grounds. The goal of having more wild life is lofty, but it makes no sense in the netherlands . For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015. There now are many and they've attacked people, horses and wiped out complete herds of sheep. The amount of sheep they are killing is increasing exponentially. (not using exponentially lightly here.) Proponents during the 2015-2020 era said that it would never come to this situation, alas.
Rhetoric questions by proponents as seen on national news website[1]:
> We hebben ook weleens last van de mens, die schieten we toch ook niet af?
> -- Aaldrik Pot
Translated:
"We also have issues with people every now and then, were not shooting them are we?"
[1]: https://nos.nl/artikel/2245512-waarom-willen-we-eigenlijk-wi...
The wolves seemingly made it back into the Netherlands on their own:
~ https://wolf.org/wow/europe/netherlands/
Wolf numbers are now reportedly at 131 split across roughly 14 packs (April 2026): https://nltimes.nl/2026/04/11/dutch-wolf-population-growing-...
I have zero insight into why Wageningen University & Research (WUR) in the Netherlands concluded in a study that "the Netherlands are legally required to contribute between 23 and 56 wolf packs" (Lost in translation? - perhaps "can support and shouldn't cull below these numbers" ?)
~ https://www.wur.nl/en/news/ecological-and-legal-framework-wo...
Dutch version of the WUR page says basically the same thing: "Uit het onderzoeksrapport blijkt dat Nederland juridisch gezien een bijdrage aan de wolvenpopulatie moet leveren van 23 tot 56 roedels. " -> the study concludes that the Netherlands has to contribute to the wolf population from 23 to 56 wolf packs.
Reading further:
https://edepot.wur.nl/690748
It seems that this is part of a european "habitats directive" for managing biodiversity within Europe. This directive (according to the above paper) determined there need to be around 500 wolf packs across Europe to keep wolves at a stable level without too much inbreeding. The Netherlands was found to be able to "contribute" 23 to 56 wolf packs in this sense.
Ah, cheers for that - I'm on the other side of the planet and was happy to do a bit of light digging on the situation but limited by not having much grasp of the written language.
Shame they can't swim, it would be good to see them reintroduced to the UK.
And bears and Lynx, Moose/Elk too I guess, Wolverines?
Actually in Kent there's a park where they are reintroducing European Bison, and alongside them some Elk. I mean it is a fenced off area experiment.
There are so many deer around here now, they're asking people to hunt them and trying to start a taste for venison.
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https://wilderness-society.org/wolf-pack-released-in-the-sco...
(Edit, this is an april fools, shit)
the official position is: https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202500453124/
Which given how much of the private land in scotland is owned for deer or grouse shooting, that seems logical.
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If those were wild sheep, and the wolves came there on their own like the other comments said, isn't that just nature working as intended?
If those were private sheep, shouldn't they be better guarded?
As a livestock owner not in the Netherlands, yes, people should guard their stock.
That's somewhat distinct from going further beyond their boundaries to wipe out threats not directly on their land.
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> For the people who don't know, there weren't wild wolves up to 2015.
Well, if you go further back in time, there were. It's not like introducing a nonnative species.
you have to go back more than 100 years, but fair.
In those 100 years the rest of the environment changed, it's a bit of an experiment right to reintroduce it without having contingency plan if things go wrong, because shooting them if they are too aggressive is not allowed, unless they're marked as 'problem wolf'.
Declaring them a problem and then shooting them is the contingency plan.
Surely there are benefits to this. What are they? Could you provide a steel man of the opposition, please?
Population control, preventing overgrazing, stuff like that. However, the Netherlands (unlike most countries) is basically a big farm with practically no wild nature, so humans manage that stuff already. Maybe I'm exaggerating a tad, but I don't get what benefit wolves have in the Netherlands specifically.
The promise that the ecosystem would manage itself and wolves would just pick the least fit of the herd. It's shown they just like to kill for the thrill. There are cases of 30 sheeps per night in one site. 'Just Place fences' is a common heard thing, however wolves are smart and will just jump over or dig underneath. If you want to make a proper barrier with concrete is just practically unaffordable for the farmers.
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To the average Dutchy? Not much. To the average European? Also not much. Animal preservation is well and good and all but anything wolves can do for the deer population humans can do. Though Idk how it is in NL, but wild boars are nasty fuckers and we do good to keep them down, so there might be some benefit there, though not sure if damage by boars if offset by damage by wolves.
Its larger animal control.
Wildboars can be quite destructive, as are deers. the wolve was the natural preditor of those animals so the only thing that kept them in check was either hunting, disease or food availability.
In the UK deer over population is a problem for forestry as they eat saplings. So we spend a lot of cash hunting them (good food source, but not widely distributed in shops) Wolves stop that.
For the netherlands sspecifically, where there are deer they eat the trees that provide bank stability (ie willows) Less of a problem now but they also eat the pioneer species that were used to build polders.
Deer carry disease for cattle and sheep as well. although cows in holland are fairly hemmed in, ticks and fleas are less so.
Everyone wants wolves except the people who have to actually live with them.
I'm not sure the wolves actually want to live with those people either but no one is suggesting to eradicate those people.
Honestly wolves work with smell and will actively avoid humans. Opposite to domesticated dogs which at the sight of a human will bark at a human and oftentimes attack. Having lived in multiple regions in Europe with statistical presence of wolves I have zero encounters with wolves and dozens of occurrences where domesticated dog was barking at me or chasing me.
Maybe they're saying that there are better ways to coexist with animals that were here before us, before we razed their forests, than, you know, genocide
Primarily because sheep owners refuse to install good fences.
That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems. They also jump surprisingly high. Moreover, once they manage to cross a fence they do not kill to feed. Instead, they slaughter entire herds of sheep for the sport of it. I personally think wolves are incredible animals, but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
> but their sudden reintroduction in the Netherlands feels ill thought out.
I don’t think it was a reintroduction, nor was it sudden.
AFAIK, they came back on their own accord, and their return was fairly slowly, after wolves returned to western Germany.
https://wolf.org/wow/europe/netherlands/:
“In a paper published in 2016, “The first proof of the recent presence of Wolves in the Netherlands,” authors wrote:
“In light of the expansion of wolves from the Polish border to the northwest of Germany and the sightings in Denmark, the appearance of the wolf in the Netherlands was no surprise to most experts. In March 2015, this expectation was fulfilled when, after generations without resident wolves, a single wolf wandered through the Dutch provinces of Drenthe and Groningen in broad daylight. From 7 to 10 March 2015, the Netherlands witnessed the comeback of an iconic species.”
Since 2019, the country has once again become home to its first pack of wolves with young pups after 150 years. Genetic sampling revealed the Netherlands wolves came from an Alpine population and Central European populations (i.e. Germany)“
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> That’s not true. Wolves are incredibly smart animals and will find and exploit weak points in otherwise expensive fencing systems.
Pair the sheep and goat herds with one or two decent sheepdogs - Kangals/Karabaş, Ovcharka (in Slavic languages, ovce means sheep, so their purpose is literally their name) or similar large breeds. That is usually enough to drive off wolves to feed off of deer instead that are a true scourge for forestry when the hunters don't keep up.
Hmm. Well, not sure about this. If you put yourself in the shoes of the wolf, sheep are abundant, free, delicious everything- their "economy" is exclusively food-bound. Not sure what kind of fences would keep them out, and how expensive would they be- and how long they would last.
It's not just the Netherlands, this is happening in Italy as well. Part of it is just the natural consequence of people having abandoned the countryside and mountains for the cities. But we certainly forgot what it means to not be the only apex predator around- we used to be able to roam around without a fear in the world like we owned the fucking place (we did). It's nice to have a wild ecosystem around but we probably forgot what it means to have around beings that are... unaligned with us.
Speaking as a non urban northern Australian .. I'm guessing that's very much a European "we"?
Here we're still surrounded by wild ecosystems and unaligned others: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA3SuHtCWo0
I guess.
It applies in more places that are heavily anthropized, such as many islands.
But yeah, most of Europe is practically a garden.
Absolutely an American and European “we”, you Aussies play on hard mode. Your closest natural deer analogue (kangaroos) looks like it served time for assault and didn’t learn its lesson, and it seems like a new poisonous animal is discovered every other week.
Oh no, the poor sheep!
Why are sheep so important to protect versus wolves? They are both animals that existed in nature and can continue to exist in nature.
Why should we be morally inclined to try and "save" sheep at the expense of wolves. Sheep and goats and deer survived throughout history without the help of humans they will continue to exist, with or without the help of humans against wolves.
Its not morals, it cost.
Sheep are a cash animal, and wolves taking them cost money.
Forests are a cash plant, and sheep taking them cost money, and wolves taking sheep save money, and humans taking wolves cost money.
It's always bout the monies. Always. And about the evil EU. EU is only good as long as it gives subsidiary monies, but we don't mention that. Never. We only take and moan.
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sorry but I think you are not considering history and data here... sheep and goats were selectively bred by humans and often cannot survive without us. Modern (domestic) sheep and goats are veeeery different from their wild ancestors (e.g. traits vital for wild survival got removed). The idea that "they survived history, they will survive forever" is a classic logical fallacy. Many species survived for millions of years right up until rapid environmental shifts/new pressures drove them to extinction (e.g. see the pyrenean ibex). Moreso: modern habitats have little resemblance to historical ones. Wild deer/goats/sheeps evolved in vast, connected ecosystems! With human development (highways/agricultural fencing/climate change) today we have severely fragmented habitats: natural migration routes are no longer there. So a lot of these "survived thorughtout history" animals can get easily squared / hunted down
yes for the love of god would someone please make sure the country remains a safe, boring holiday park / dairy farm. will someone think of all that poor livestock / the children!!1
Well I guess we differ there then, I do like not having to carry a rifle or sprays when i walk outside (we are not allowed). I also like livestock and kids not having to fear a predator that we drove to the outskirts.
I do wonder where you live in the Netherlands and if you just find it convenient to talk about the rural parts without having to face the consequences.
This is everything wrong with the netherlands. The over the top complaining of the “farmers” (factory operator would be more accurate).
Wolves stay away from humans, there have been zero human deaths by wolves. The whole anti wolf movement is just propaganda by the “farmers”.
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Wolves generally don't attack people, though, do they?
There are no recent (last half century) documented cases of wolves killing people in Europe as far as I know. The few times people have been bitten by wolves they've been feeding them or doing other stupid stuff.
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As someone who lives in a country with wolves and other apex canids (to the point where we have legal hunting seasons for them), I really don't understand the supposed "consequences" here. Canid populations just aren't an issue. There are no children living in fear (rather, we have to keep kids from trying to approach the cute animals...), nor are the occasional depredation events more than a minor annoyance. If a wolf or big cat in particular eats your lifestock, you file a form with the government for market-value compensation and complain about the hassle at the bar.
"safe and boring holiday park" sounds like a sentence for a country.
> sentence for a country
Sure... It's a developed productive high tech country with agricultural exports leaving Russia in the dust despite 400 times smaller land size, but let's condemn it because it's "safe"
Also ask the farmers, fishers, ASML employees, the police dealing with gang killings and Netherlands being the biggest exporter of ecstasy and European gateway for coke how it's a "holiday park";)
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I very much like the safe and boring part of it.
there is also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disneyland_with_the_Death_Pena...
Disneyland with the Death Penalty" is a 4,500-word article about Singapore written by William Gibson. It wad his first major piece of non-fiction.
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Beep beep! We have detected your mild criticism of the EU and have applied the necessary downvotes. Have a nice day!
Oh don't get me wrong, I like the EU for many things, but course correcting is not its strong suit.