There is no form of surveillance that does more good than harm in the long run. The endless debates about the value of "catching bad guys" or "keeping people on their best behavior" should be rightly seen as opposed to the fundamental notion that human beings are capable of cooperation and altruism at scale. No amount of mass surveillance is justifiable, and there is no version of the future in which we allow it but do not create dystopia
Often, there are many solutions to a problem, with different externalities and implementation requirements. Speed limit enforcement for sure has some benefits, but also some downsides. Any absolute has edge cases that don't work, but I don't in fact think creating the large networks of people empowered to surveil citizens to enforce speed limits is the only viable means of reducing traffic deaths, a goal which is often better served by creating more viable transportation alternatives to cars. I don't think carceral approaches to problems are always wrong, but they are often an attempt to individuate a problem that's better addressed on the level of infrastructure
GP probably meant mass surveillance. I don't think anyone's arguing that a cop with a radar gun watching one piece of road is harmful. It's harmful when it scales to hundreds of data points across different areas, is automated, and has almost no oversight or accountability baked into the system.
I disagree, I want all of my decision-making government employees monitored and logged 24/7 complete with a peeping tom AI to sort the recordings by suspiciousness and performance with accurate potentially large bonuses on large time delays.
Desicions are not made by government employees, they simply obey and execute, not without personal gains, of course.
You want to monitor and log someone else. Start with top oligarchs, IMF, World Bank, WEF, Blackrock, Vanguard and so on, then track further behind the curtains.
This has nothing to do with capitalism, as these practices antagonise paying customers and quality employees and will lose money to the company in the long run.
This has all to do with people wanting control over other people, which may me classified under authoritarism, totalitarism and the such.
I closed mine a while ago specifically because of the anti-union behavior. It's not acceptable and Amazon should meet its end as a corporate entity as a consequence.
Because of who runs the department of labor. When it comes to labor laws, there are a lot of them that benefit employees but are barely or not at all enforced. Even not paying wages is something the federal DoL rarely has both the will and resources to punish.
right, this something that cant be offshored, and only legalised slavery could optimise there labour costs more, and the robots are not performing quite as well as needed, so a holding action untill they can get a legal frame work to start fining employees for fraternisation with intent.
not to worry, it's in the works.
Did workforce analytics at a big logistics outfit and this stuff is usually sold internally as "attrition risk" or "engagement heatmaps", never as union anything. Same features though, shift churn, grievance counts, break room badge patterns.
Government surveillance is much worse than corporate surveillance but European countries are only interested in restricting the latter, and only when it doesn't get involved with preventing the former.
My brother in china once told me "In china, every company of a certain size has board seats filled by a representative of the party, to make sure corporate and government priorities align. In america, every company of a certain size sends lobbyists and sometimes runs candidates directly, to make sure corporate and government priorities align"
Concentration of power has many instances of convergent evolution, but societies trending dystopian is heavily correlated with concentration of power regardless of the shape it takes
You can click each box in the matrix and see the source for the acts in question from each country. What kind of quantitative measure are you expecting?
There is no form of surveillance that does more good than harm in the long run. The endless debates about the value of "catching bad guys" or "keeping people on their best behavior" should be rightly seen as opposed to the fundamental notion that human beings are capable of cooperation and altruism at scale. No amount of mass surveillance is justifiable, and there is no version of the future in which we allow it but do not create dystopia
> There is no form of surveillance that does more good than harm in the long run.
...how far do you take this maxim? Should we have any police on the street to enforce speed limits, since they're surveilling the speed of drivers?
Often, there are many solutions to a problem, with different externalities and implementation requirements. Speed limit enforcement for sure has some benefits, but also some downsides. Any absolute has edge cases that don't work, but I don't in fact think creating the large networks of people empowered to surveil citizens to enforce speed limits is the only viable means of reducing traffic deaths, a goal which is often better served by creating more viable transportation alternatives to cars. I don't think carceral approaches to problems are always wrong, but they are often an attempt to individuate a problem that's better addressed on the level of infrastructure
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GP probably meant mass surveillance. I don't think anyone's arguing that a cop with a radar gun watching one piece of road is harmful. It's harmful when it scales to hundreds of data points across different areas, is automated, and has almost no oversight or accountability baked into the system.
I thought the "automated" part was a clear implication of the statement personally.
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I'm okay with the idea of some asymmetry. You need to pay to look up my stuff, but once you do, I get access to yours for free.
I disagree, I want all of my decision-making government employees monitored and logged 24/7 complete with a peeping tom AI to sort the recordings by suspiciousness and performance with accurate potentially large bonuses on large time delays.
And you're willing to subject yourself to such monitoring as well, right?
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Desicions are not made by government employees, they simply obey and execute, not without personal gains, of course.
You want to monitor and log someone else. Start with top oligarchs, IMF, World Bank, WEF, Blackrock, Vanguard and so on, then track further behind the curtains.
> I am optimistic about the future of AI at Amazon
It's scary to think that any answer but "Strongly Agree" will very likely flag you as a risk.
Is this really the society we want?
Oh you can't answer strongly agree to everything, that flags that you're obviously not actually answering, which makes you a risk.
Its the society ~1k companies want, and if you don't play along you wont have a job or healthcare.
Capitalism as a practice or an idea needs to be destroyed.
Fictional take:
https://karmak.org/archive/2003/12/manna/manna1.htm
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This has nothing to do with capitalism, as these practices antagonise paying customers and quality employees and will lose money to the company in the long run.
This has all to do with people wanting control over other people, which may me classified under authoritarism, totalitarism and the such.
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Closed my Amazon (UK) account the other day. Never been happier not to give them money.
I closed mine a while ago specifically because of the anti-union behavior. It's not acceptable and Amazon should meet its end as a corporate entity as a consequence.
You sounds like those chinese when I visited china.
They said, no to american food, stomping on KFC. Recording using iPhone.
Same thing here, I closed my Amazon account, sharing it on HN run on AWS
Deleting my HN account credentials now. Bye o/
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"You criticize society, yet you participate in it."
You sounds like those chinese when I visited china.
They said, no to american food, stomping on KFC. Recording with iPhones.
Same thing here, Closing an Amazon account, sharing it on HN running on AWS.
Yet you also participate in society, curious
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HN doesn't run on AWS.
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Healthy work environment https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/makima-is-listening-kishise-n...
We all died during 9/11 and this is hell
I will never understand how corporations are allowed to interfere in any way with unions
it should be a protected freedom to associate and expression
why is it allowed to be gameified where if corporations can detect it early they can stop it?
hands-off people's lives, unions aren't illegal so no interference
Because of who runs the department of labor. When it comes to labor laws, there are a lot of them that benefit employees but are barely or not at all enforced. Even not paying wages is something the federal DoL rarely has both the will and resources to punish.
They're not. See page 115 of the materials linked from the article. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nosR5ER-VFYiw52si_M5kM9ZBfD...
Well, those things are illegal in most countries, according to my understanding?
The thing is, proof to catch the offender, which will be hard in mega corps?
Is there a legal case there? Union-busting being unconstitutional?
Is there enough training data for the monitoring results to be close to accurate?
right, this something that cant be offshored, and only legalised slavery could optimise there labour costs more, and the robots are not performing quite as well as needed, so a holding action untill they can get a legal frame work to start fining employees for fraternisation with intent. not to worry, it's in the works.
Did workforce analytics at a big logistics outfit and this stuff is usually sold internally as "attrition risk" or "engagement heatmaps", never as union anything. Same features though, shift churn, grievance counts, break room badge patterns.
Businesses usually have innocent sounding euphemisms when breaking the law.
Of course. Never put in writing how you're breaking the law.
Government surveillance is much worse than corporate surveillance but European countries are only interested in restricting the latter, and only when it doesn't get involved with preventing the former.
AmazonUK now requires ID and a selfie for "bladed items": https://discuss.privacyguides.net/t/amazon-uk-now-requires-p...
The UK is ranked as one of the least free countries for digital freedom: https://eylenburg.github.io/countries.htm. Worse than India, Brazil, and Vietnam.
>Government surveillance is much worse than corporate surveillance
I think in practice you'll find they go hand in hand together.
My brother in china once told me "In china, every company of a certain size has board seats filled by a representative of the party, to make sure corporate and government priorities align. In america, every company of a certain size sends lobbyists and sometimes runs candidates directly, to make sure corporate and government priorities align"
Concentration of power has many instances of convergent evolution, but societies trending dystopian is heavily correlated with concentration of power regardless of the shape it takes
That's what I said.
You know, when I want to know country rankings of digital freedoms, the very first place i go to is eylenburg.github.io
What are their sources for their statistics? "Source: eylenburg.github.io"
Ah.
You can click each box in the matrix and see the source for the acts in question from each country. What kind of quantitative measure are you expecting?