Comment by weitendorf
1 hour ago
I'm sorry and will be the first to admit I went for this too, but "using agents to write more tools for agents." is literally the problem.
The purpose of software is to help people with their problems. I think it's easy to tell ourselves that other people want to use our tools which we really made to help ourselves (especially if them using it also helps ourselves even more!). And also, this is all so new and there are real opportunities that it is good to learn and try new things and be open to actually making something valuable.
But! Other people extensively using agents are literally the last people who would pay for a project like this! And unless it's a fulltime job like it is for a 5 or so well resourced tech companies, it's hard to make something as good and useful as them. I say this as someone who spent a long time on this problem as my fulltime job.
We should still have fun with our work. But literally, "software for other software people, that solves the problem of us needing to write more software for writing software, faster", who is that helping? There are no constraints or end users besides ourselves, and half of that is not so much it benefiting us through productivity, but learning new things and play - again, important. But there's a reason so many people are doing this and I think it's because they don't have to go outside and solve someone else's problem, or do something unusual, or involving unfun non-software aspects - agents are fun! But how many random people's agent have you installed?
IMO: if the technology does not help a non-technology person live a better life, and especially if it involves "using an agent to build a framework for agents" we should do some more, deeper introspection about what problem we are actually solving and whether or not we're being ambitious. And I say that not to pick on you but myself.
I really love your viewpoint. And I also see that around me a lot of people developing their own custom stuff that fits to their way of thinking, but not apt to others, so everyone developing their own custom. It is fast an cheap, exciting and comfortable. I am a bit puzzled as I see hyperpersonalised sw is a way to divide us and put us in an echo chamber. No need to understand how others work or think… And we loose our knowledge that is comming from the experience of interacting whit other way of thinking.
I see your point. In this case I'm intentionally reinventing the wheel for the sake of correctness and quality.
For the end user, the outcome will likely be the same when compared to opencode or similar, but the journey will be nicer
I expect no one to actually use it though, however nice it might be to hope for that
I do wish you well and think it's good for us to work on these tools if only to help ourselves better understand how to work with these things, and have fun. I've actually had a blast working on agent tooling with agents too.
What I fear is that as computer people we can easily convince ourselves to avoid doing things in-person or which involve leaving the comfort of our inner/online lives, or having to bridge technology with some other thing that is very much not technology (like non technical people, or sales and marketing), or is but is not easy to work with (like a robot). But there are actually a ton of problems that need solving there, and they are uncomfortable because it might involve looking stupid or showing up somewhere nobody knows you, or unknown-unknowns.
Personally I am embarrassed at myself not for trying to solve my own problems (I want to spend all day doing tech stuff and make money selling it to other people doing tech stuff) but for how long it took me to realize that I was either anxious or thought I was above doing something more concrete and mundane.
For example, this is a popular music venue in the city I live in https://www.thegreatnorthernsf.com/ - Claude and Codex have been out for months; it would take like 20 minutes to give their site a makeover, mostly just watching AI work.
This is how local government events are coordinate in the most technologically forward city in the world. Double irony that the product is provided by one of the biggest tech companies in the city, too. But it's literally just a web form and some poor government worker is apologizing in the event details that the signups are broken: https://sfrpd.my.salesforce-sites.com/SFRPDJob?sShiftId=a09P...
I think agents are very fun and cool but I'm increasingly convinced that my job is to use them to help this type of user, not developers.