Comment by keiferski
1 day ago
It's the problem with most Oliver Stone movies, Scorsese movies, and many other directors: the premise of the film requires a charismatic antihero, and therefore the "bad guy" becomes cool and popular.
The directors always try to avoid this criticism by saying, "Well he goes to jail in the end," but I think it's a bit of a cop out.
I tend to agree with the idea that art should try to embody some moral values, which goes against a lot of contemporary thoughts on aesthetics. But I think it’s a basic fact that people look toward fictional characters as role models, directly or indirectly. Avoiding that responsibility is not good.
> I think it’s a basic fact that people look toward fictional characters as role models
I think it's closer to "monkey see, monkey do".
After the Fast and The Furious movies, young men would street race home from the movie.
After watching the movie The Program, young men laid down in the street at night hoping not to get hit by traffic (copying the risky stunt the characters in the movie did).
The art simply shows what is, not what should be.
The Sopranos was interesting because it showed a mob boss doing the typical mob boss things (dodging FBI surveillance, dealing with rival crime families and street thugs, organizing new business ventures, burying evidence deep in the woods / dumping in the river). But it also showed a man with momma issues, with panic attacks, processing (well mostly rejecting) therapy, a wife who spends too much, a son as dumb as a box of rocks, etc. It wasn't the broad morality of western societies, but it was approachable because the character was eminently human.
Similarly, Dexter was a serial murderer, but he had "a code" (to only murder other serial murderers). His code doesn't necessarily match up with the morals of you or I, but like any fiction, it allows you to suspect your disbelief and inhabit the moral choices / predicaments of the character for a few minutes / hours.
s/suspect/suspend/
The godfather was interesting coz it apparently inspired the italian mafia to act less trashy.
they aspired to appear more civilized after seeing how they were portrayed on film - wearing tailored suits and swearing less I guess.
It isn't the effect I would have expected.
> The directors always try to avoid this criticism by saying, "Well he goes to jail in the end," but I think it's a bit of a cop out
I don’t know which directors you’re referring to, but I doubt you receieved such a simplistic response from Scorcese. Worth reading him in his own words on this, below is what he said regarding Jordan Belfort’s character in The Wolf of Wall Street,
“That's something that I've always been attracted to and is interesting to me. Someone like Jordan or Jake Lamotta or Tommy, Joe Pesci’s character in Goodfellas, and people say well that type of person that sort but… I guess what that means is that they try to distance themselves from them. It's someone else it's not me but in actuality I feel it's not someone else, it's us. It's you and me and maybe if we'd been born under different circumstances, maybe we would have wound up making the same, exactly the same mistakes and choices and doing exactly the same things. I really think … when people say “that kind,” it’s not a matter of equalizing everyone and saying we're all responsible, I think it's a matter of facing and recognizing and acknowledging that part of us which is a part of our common humanity. And we have to deal with it.”
“He [Jordan Belfort] thought that he could bypass morality or surpass morality with a combination of money and drugs. I don't know maybe he still does, I really don't know. There's another way of answering the question; he was different from Madoff and Skilling in that they weren't crashing helicopters or throwing little people (or maybe they were but if they did they kept it pretty quiet) but in that sense Jordan's experiences are more entertaining and that brings you closer to him because you look at these guys and think this seems to be a lot of fun. Well, it doesn't just look that way they really did have a lot of fun. In fact that's really all they could do is have fun and more fun and more on top of that, until it wasn't so much fun anymore. But what they couldn't do was just be. They just couldn't face that. So the challenge is to show that honestly without tipping the scales into judgment and taking you outside of the world these characters and the particular ways that they live their lives which was to obliterate all obstacles, all troubles, all difficulties, by taking more drugs, more money.”
https://youtu.be/kTCyZoaORao
> Well, it doesn't just look that way they really did have a lot of fun. In fact that's really all they could do is have fun and more fun and more on top of that, until it wasn't so much fun anymore. But what they couldn't do was just be. They just couldn't face that.
Blaise Pascal in his Pensées (Thoughts):
> When I have occasionally set myself to consider the different distractions of men, the pains and perils to which they expose themselves at court or in war, whence arise so many quarrels, passions, bold and often bad ventures, etc., I have discovered that all the unhappiness of men arises from one single fact, that they cannot stay quietly in their own chamber. A man who has enough to live on, if he knew how to stay with pleasure at home, would not leave it to go to sea or to besiege a town. A commission in the army would not be bought so dearly, but that it is found insufferable not to budge from the town; and men only seek conversation and entering games, because they cannot remain with pleasure at home. […]
> Whatever condition we picture to ourselves, if we muster all the good things which it is possible to possess, royalty is the finest position in the world. Yet, when we imagine a king attended with every pleasure he can feel, if he be without diversion, and be left to consider and reflect on what he is, this feeble happiness will not sustain him; he will necessarily fall into forebodings of dangers, of revolutions which may happen, and, finally, of death and inevitable disease; so that if he be without what is called diversion, he is unhappy, and more unhappy than the least of his subjects who plays and diverts himself. […]
* https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18269/18269-h/18269-h.htm § 139
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensées
And perhaps:
> To endure oneself may be the hardest task in the universe. You cannot hire a wise man or any other intellect to solve it for you. There's no writ of inquest or calling of witness to provide answers. No servant or disciple can dress the wound. You dress it yourself or continue bleeding for all to see.
* Frank Herbert, Dune Messiah
I don't think it's exactly "bad guy looks cool and popular." Some people simply identify with villains in fiction. They see nothing wrong with what normal people see as villainous behavior. Without society's law and order, and/or with wealth/power of their own, they would themselves behave just as villainous.
I'm convinced that a lot of people--probably even some of my own neighbors--wear a mask of civility only because we live in a society and have rules that are enforced. If the opportunity ever arrived and we entered some kind of Mad Max lawlessness, they would instantly start to murder and plunder just like barbarians out of fiction.
>I'm convinced that a lot of people--probably even some of my own neighbors--wear a mask of civility only because we live in a society and have rules that are enforced. If the opportunity ever arrived and we entered some kind of Mad Max lawlessness, they would instantly start to murder and plunder just like barbarians out of fiction.
This is mostly a prepper fantasy that justifies things like buying a bunch of guns and canned beans instead of investing in more difficult things like community building. From the (IMO, naive) POV that human behavior is strictly selfish, it would rarely occurs that this kind of behavior would be beneficial to an individual's self-interest. Even in the worst-case, entirely imaginary SHTF complete destruction of society scenario, sociable behavior is more beneficial than any kind of anti-social Wasteland Raider behavior.
Maybe some aberrant individuals, but they would quickly fail without community support.
That preppers and the "tough on crime" set overlap is really curious to me, since in the first you have an acknowledgment that circumstances shape behavior utterly, and in the second you have people really, really eager to punish or deter on an individual level, rather than shape behavior by changing systems.
1 reply →
Where are we placing the responsibility?
It's okay for art to explore immoral topics, but it's generally not okay for creators and commentators to go, "Come to your own conclusions, wink wink." Have the respect for your viewers, and for your society, to be upfront about how your art is fraught; to say that you don't like the message or implications even if you felt compelled to explore some dark aspect of reality or society or psychology. Or, have the courage to say that you don't think it is fraught. But it's definitely irresponsible to unleash something transgressive on society and then try to wash your hands of it.
Over the last 10 minutes of Wall Street, the main character gets arrested, breaks down crying, gets punched in the face, and then goes to jail. The last scene has his father (driving the MC to jail) turn almost literally to the camera and tell the viewer which precise moral value he's being punished for not upholding. I don't know how much more embodied in the art the values could be.
The problem is that you have to include people's self-justifications to tell a meaningful story. If Gordon Gekko were an uncharismatic sleazeball who tells everyone "I'm greedy because the misery of others pleases me, haha!", the film wouldn't work as a criticism of Wall Street, because real Wall Street tycoons are usually charismatic and don't say such things in public.
>his father (driving the MC to jail) turn almost literally to the camera and tell the viewer which precise moral value he's being punished for not upholding.
Yes, and there's the scene with Hal Holbrook, I think he lectures Bud Fox just before or after he's arrested? Holbrook made a career of playing moral authority figures.
I think the seductive appeal of Gordon Gekko is meant to illustrate something fundamental about the human condition. We are all susceptible to temptation, whether it involves pleasure, money, status, or power. Success doesn't necessarily satisfy desire, if anything, it intensifies it. Can you eat just one potato chip? Would you return a found wallet full of cash? If you made a million dollars, would that be enough? Gekko is an example of an ordinary human predicament: the difficulty of knowing when we have enough, and the ease with which we rationalize getting more.
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On another note, it's too late to edit my earlier post in this topic.
"delivered in 1986 at The speaker? Ivan Boesky"
should be
"delivered in 1986 at what is now the Haas School of Business of the University of California at Berkeley. The speaker? Ivan Boesky"
The erroneous question mark is in the PDF, but I inadvertently omitted the location clause. Carelessness is another aspect of the human condition.
> I think the seductive appeal of Gordon Gekko is meant to illustrate something fundamental about the human condition. We are all susceptible to temptation, whether it involves pleasure, money, status, or power.
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago:
> The line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either—but right through every human heart—and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. And even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained.
* https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/450864-the-line-separating-...
Thomas Aquinas, echoing earlier philosophers, wrote that money, power, pleasure, and fame/glory/honour were the main idols in this life:
* https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2002.htm
They're not bad in themselves, but they should not be your 'highest good'.
was going to say, Hollywood knows exactly what it's doing with these "bad guys"