Ask HN: Apple revoked developer account for 2.5 years and counting
4 years ago
tldr: I launched Truple 4.5 years ago (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14113636), a bootstrapped parental control / accountability app. Truple is used by parents to gain insight into how their children use the internet, but also by adults who struggle with online habits they'd like to change (porn being chief among them). The screenshot based approach Truple offers proves to work much better than other solutions. It's the only solution that allows you to use social media, but still have accountability for what you're viewing through social media. For example, if you have access to Twitter, you have access to porn. You can't use twitter without having that access. Truple allows you to use twitter while still being held accountable for what you view on twitter. No other solution offers this, because they don't report what you're viewing within an app. Twitter is just an example, the same goes for all "innocent" apps (social media, streaming sites, etc) that contain concerning content.
2.5 years ago, I submitted an early version of a MacOS app for notarization. A couple of days later my Apple Developer account was "frozen" without any message or indication why. The signing certificates were just revoked. After a year or so, Apple said they found "potentially unwanted software" in my app and were investigating. I indicated that was unexpected (that's the only question they asked me). As background, to run the app you have to download and install it, login to your truple account, select what you want the monitoring settings to be, grant permissions, etc. It's a whole process. I point this out because the app didn't do anything malicious or against the device owners' will.
After nearly two years of waiting on Apple (I emailed regularly, they kept saying it was under review) Apple decided they wouldn't finish the investigation but that I needed to create a new developer account. I've since done so. I submitted a redesigned version of the app for notarization, and now, while my account isn't "frozen", notarization is rejected with the message: "Team is not yet configured for notarization." I submitted a "hello world" app using boilerplate code for notarization, and I get the same rejection. I now have another case open with Apple, and it's going nowhere it seems. I'm assuming Apple has flagged my second account due to the previous issue. I fear I'm stuck in a continual loop.
Truple was the first to offer screenshot based monitoring as a parental control / accountability app, but during the past 2.5 years, multimillion dollar competitors have been allowed by Apple to launch apps with similar functionality for Apple products. I have read and reread the Apple developer agreement. My app is in alignment with it... I've made sure since day one that a "reasonably suspicious" notification is present when the app is monitoring. Once enabled, the data captured is end-to-end encrypted and only made accessible to the account owner and their chosen recipients. I've expressed a willingness to make changes if need be, but Apple hasn't indicated I need to make any. They've just been silent.
What should I do? I've been extremely patient with Apple. But it's now been 2.5 years and it's gotten me nowhere. Apple seems unwilling to do anything for me but take my annual developer fee. I'm not famous and I have no significant following to rely on to garner attention to this unfair treatment. I ask for your help.
You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software?
I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!?
I am willing to bet part of the issue is the targeting for this app. The functionality is likely second, but they may have special rules when it comes to parental apps. But there is a very very fine line there that can be dangerous when it comes to surveillance.
Last... I find your focus on "online filth" insulting.
> You said other apps are fine, but are those other apps advertising themselves as parental controls or as stalking software?
Search for "accountability software", and you'll find apps advertised in a very similar manner that have had no issues with Apple, with absolutely no mentioning of parental controls.
> I took a look at your website https://truple.io and... there is very little mention of this being for parents. TBH looking at the website is... deeply concerning for anyone that would legitimately want to use this product. Especially on a spouse?!?
It's used voluntarily by the device owner. It's not used "on" anyone. The whole point of this is to provide accountability. Including a comment from below I'd hoped would get pinned: "Some may not agree with the use of parental control/accountability software. That's fine. Truple is not designed for you. There are tons of people who are negatively impacted by technology and they desperately need/want help. They should have the option to get it, and there should be competition in the space to deliver the best product for them. In today's world, using the internet is a part of life, and isn't something you can reasonably go without. Truple was built to help people learn to use technology responsibly with the help of their loved ones."
> Last... I find your focus on "online filth" insulting.
Online filth was intended to generalize the concerns, not focus them.
I looked up a few alternatives and your website and marketing tell a very different story.
"Online filth" is in your website header, so your kinda focusing on them. I looked at the reviews and your most recent one continues to reinforce something about "filth" https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.camhart.ne...
As far as not being used "on" someone. Again you have reviews from Spouses and Parents which would imply they are being used "on" someone. Something I noticed the other apps focus on is individual accountability. I see almost no reference to spouses or parents there. Just having some you trust to be accountable too.
Your first line on google play says "Truple protects your loved ones against porn & other online filth. It holds your loved ones accountable in a way that's near impossible to bypass by capturing and sharing screenshots." How exactly is that not it being "used on anyone"?
Your marketing around this tells a story of surveillance trying to pass it off as some "good" where accountability is a secondary issue. While here you are focused on accountability.
And personally I have to wonder if Apple takes this into account when approving apps (which I assume they do)
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> Search for "accountability software", and you'll find apps advertised in a very similar manner
I googled a bit and found [1] and [2]. Their marketing is very very different from yours [3].
[1] looks very tasteful, considering they are basically spyware. It's a very positive spin with great copywriting.
[2] gives me some Christian vibes, it's not for me, but it still looks decent.
[3] on the other hand just looks really creepy. The copy is awkward and the hectic GIF with the screenshots and the bikini picture just gives me stalker vibes.
It's a question of taste. Great Mac and iPhone are done very tastefully. Truple is missing that.
(That doesn't mean that Apple only approves tasteful apps. There are a lot of poorly designed apps on the app store. But if you are doing something even slightly questionable, and your app looks a bit creepy, then Apple is not going to go out of their way to help you get it out there, even if you aren't breaking any explicit rules.)
[1]: https://accountable2you.com [2]: https://everaccountable.com/ref/61/ [3]: https://truple.io
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What are some of the comparable applications you're thinking about? Can you link to them? You know more about the space than most of us, so help us out a bit.
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>filth
This is a sort of "smelly" word to see in an advertisement, in that referring to material as "filth" brings up memories/images of, for want of a better phrase, cultural intolerance. You may get better reception by calling such content "improper" or something less emotionally charged.
Note that parental control apps are a type of stalking software; it's just that society is okay with it.
I feel so gross after looking at that site I think I need to watch some porn.
> I am willing to bet part of the issue is the targeting for this app.
Then why can't Apple just fucking say that? Why all the stupid drama?
Likely for the same reason that not every rule about combating spam and promotion on HN is public: because if you document them all, you're providing a blueprint to bad actors for how to get around the rules.
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Hmm, ages ago we added a cannabis related app on Apple/iOS -- and there were loads of other (small-ish) already on there -- to help grow, or find (to buy) or to review cannabis products.
Ours was for regualtory compliance -- a legal obligation for cannabis businesses. REJECTED! And after a 6mo appeal/review process -- with moving goal-posts -- we were allowed back in. YAY.
And then they started getting into the application and making demands -- one was to use their payment systems -- which was BS, because our clients get into the App, and use it most of the time outside of Apple devices (ie: Desktop in Browser). So another round, 3mo later and they'd not force the payment issue.
And the next review required us to remove any details about pricing from our application -- not our app pricing -- but the pricing for the inventory under management. So, users, in-app, couldn't see the regulatory compliance data: price of product sold; in the APP. But we pushed through! and finally got published in the App Store!! Yay!
And one month later we had to renew our Apple Developer -- cause this whole thing took 11 months of back/forth with Apple.
Then we got clients using it (finally!) and the clients were all grumpy cause the features were gone. Then another two more years with us trying to Apple trying to improve our App.
An last year, we just bailed on the App Store and have given up.
What's super frustrating is since we initially tried our process (starting in 2016) -- other cannabis apps, with pricing and online ordering and all this stuff that we were NOT allowed to do are in the store.
It's kind of sad that we went from "there's an app for that" to Apple themselves being a huge obstacle to making useful, feature-rich mobile software. I used to think writing an app would be a fun side project or that a job in mobile development could be cool. These days I don't want to touch it with a six foot pole.
We really have to get away from having only a few mega-powerful providers for such services to having smaller providers that actually compete with each other. It's insane that Apple has full control of what goes onto devices that have such a significant market share. The app store(s) should be run by different that do the app reviews and allow apps by their own guidelines. So if you want a cannabis or porn app you can go to an app store that allows these apps and if you like a more family friendly store you go to another app store.
The censorship abilities these companies have is just too much. I don't like Trump but it really bothered me that Facebook and Twitter blocked him. If the block the US president how many smaller guys are being censored and you never will know?
Content and distribution by a single entity...keeps rearing its head.
What regulation requires you to publish an app? That strikes me as very unusual.
Nothing requires us to publish an app -- but when you make LOB software, the user-base is like "where's the App?" -- so you build one. It's not a strict, absolute requirement -- it's a de-facto requirement (like passing to the left)
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Who the fuck has time for this bullshit? I don't miss developing mobile apps.
> Ours was for regualtory compliance -- a legal obligation for cannabis businesses.
Cannabis businesses are illegal to operate in the United States, where Apple resides. Possession and distribution of cannabis is a federal felony in all 50 states and US territories.
This is an issue with the United States, not with Apple.
The lack of side loading is an Apple issue, but if you are going to make that argument (and you should!) then the cannabis app rejection is a red herring.
I‘m sorry for You. I can see how you‘d think that your software is providing society a service. And yet from my perspective your software is malware. I don’t think you have considered the legal ramifications of your software in all markets where the app store is offered. Aside from the legal risk to You, there is also a reputational risk to Apple, a company trying to rebrand itself by focussing on privacy (CSAM nonwithstanding). Do you have safeguards that can 100% rule out the use of your App as spyware ? I think you should move on with your life.
> And yet from my perspective your software is malware.
At first I thought exactly this. This app is disclosing what it does, in the open. The product is very direct and clear what it does, and how it does it. One of the hallmarks of malware is that is is doing things without the user knowing, or in many cases wanting. The only way I would install this is if I wanted it to do exactly what it does.
> Do you have safeguards that can 100% rule out the use of your App as spyware ?
I'm not sure that this is really what is needed here. Any app with telemetry, especially screenshots could be used as spyware. In this case, the app is not hidden, is installed by the user, and it is very clear what it does. There's nothing clandestine or spy-ish about it. It is literally marketed saying this app will take and send screenshots to a person you pick.
> I don’t think you have considered the legal ramifications
This is probably where the biggest potential problems really are: truple is collecting evidence that likely would be used against users in court - be it civil court where it could be used to prove you were doing something bad at 10am (you were chatting instead of working) last week or criminal court where the screenshot might be used as direct evidence of a crime.
With regards to the last point. Truple offers end-to-end encryption. We also permanently delete all accountability data once it's 15 days old. Not saying it's without risk, just that I've done everything I can to mitigate the risks of data getting into hands it shouldn't.
Competitors currently allowed by Apple don't offer end-to-end encryption. Most delete data eventually, but 15 days is the shortest retention I'm aware of.
It's not malware if it's voluntarily installed and wanted by the end user, provides a persistent notification indicating that monitoring is occurring, etc. These are the requirements Apple/Google have for parental control type apps.
In case you didn't read the full description, Apple is allowing competitors to do the same thing.
I've gone over privacy concerns with lawyers though I appreciate your concern/suggestions.
> And yet from my perspective your software is malware.
So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people. I have a good married friend who uses parental control software on himself to reduce the temptation to look at porn. It basically just gives his wife access to his browsing history. Sure, he could bypass it a number of ways if he was really determined, but it's more about just raising the level of effort required so that impulsive usage is mitigated.
> So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people.
It's not that simple. You are purposefully bringing up an extremely rare use case to detract from the fact that 99% of users of this software are going to be abusive parents who install it on their children's phones without consent. (Or heck, maybe even abusive spouses.) If parents are that concerned, even banning their children from "innocent" apps like Twitter or computer/phone use altogether is better than this invasive 1984-like software.
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> So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people.
You mean the choice to install malware on other people's devices? Why shouldn't it be taken away?
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It would be a bit less of an issue if Apple allowed apps outside of their store to be installed to begin with.
Off topic, I knew marriages could be toxic but this is peak. If you don't trust your partner 100%+ the marriage is already dead IMHO.
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> And yet from my perspective your software is malware.
Your perspective is objectively incorrect. Something cannot be "malware" if it is intentionally installed for a purpose beneficial to the installer, doesn't contain hidden anti-features, or doesn't make itself intentionally hard to uninstall (modulo the obvious cases where that's a feature, such as find-my-stolen-device tools, and this one).
> I think you should move on with your life.
This is useless and the opposite of helpful. If you don't have anything constructive to say on HN, perhaps you shouldn't say anything at all.
> I‘m sorry for You. I can see how you‘d think that your software is providing society a service.
...and this is downright condescending.
I also don't want Apple approving apps which can essentially take over everything and eliminate all safety or privacy guarantees... but this developer is also saying that Apple has approved competitors of the same nature.
I don't know how accurate the fine details are, but this story in its broad outlines seems very unfair and capricious.
Competitors are allowed to capture screenshots randomly and send those screenshots to someone. The details are very similar. Interestingly enough, competitors don't end-to-end encrypt the data. Only I do that.
If there was some little tweak that was super important to Apple, I'd hope they'd let me know about it instead of being silent though. I'm willing to adjust based on their feedback, but they say nothing.
> I also don't want Apple approving apps which can essentially take over everything and eliminate all safety or privacy guarantees.
Unfortunately, it won't happen because that would mean Apple need to ban MDM software from the App Store. Thousands of thousands of companies using MDM and it won't be a good move for Apple if they attempt to do so. Apple could do it, but they will lose profits, money talks louder than doing for the goodwill.
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Sorry, but "others got away with it" is not a good argument. I would personally view your software as invasive malware, no matter how good your intentions may be. The right course of action here is to report all similar apps to Apple and have them taken down as well.
So by your logic are you saying it'd be immoral for someone to provide an app or program that a user _specifically wants_ that tracks their device activity and shares it with a designated recipient? No one is forcing anybody to install this app, many apps like this exist on a variety of ecosystems and there are many many many testimonies of these types of apps helping people accomplish their accountability goals. How can something you explicitly agree to and want be considered 'invasive malware'?
> I would personally view your software as invasive malware
Your view is objectively incorrect. Something cannot be "malware" if it is intentionally installed for a purpose beneficial to the installer, doesn't contain hidden anti-features, or doesn't make itself intentionally hard to uninstall (modulo the obvious cases where that's a feature, such as find-my-stolen-device tools, and this one).
It's a perfectly valid argument. Apple always says their rules are for everyone and applied equally. They testify to this in court. And yet, it doesn't seem to be the case here.
I don't understand why people are trying to guess the reason why Apple is doing this. I'm not a fan of this concept, but I wouldn't label it as malware to be used by abusive spouses and parents.
If you read the FAQs on the website, it clearly states:
And if Apple thinks this is malware or might be a legal liability, why can't it be transparent in its communication with the developer?
If you read the thread we're commenting on, you'll see that the author removed a conspicuous warning indicator that screen recording was enabled, because their competitors didn't seem to be required to provide one. We don't know who those competitors are, but we do know that the author deliberately made this surveillance app stealthier because they believed they'd get away with it.
My point is that if this is a violation and if the OP is correct that competitors are not following this rule, shouldn't Apple be transparent in its communication with OP? Why drag it out over years with cryptic responses?
Spoiler Alert: Because Apple (and Google) can get away with it.
I removed a red dot that didn't belong on my logo and wasn't being required by Apple with any other apps.
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I think what's really happening is your app is in a grey area. There's similar apps on the market which haven't been removed, and a mountain which have. Now yours has been removed since someone thought it straddled the line the wrong way too far, and there is no incentive to restore it. That would require affirming that they specifically condone it again. Nobody has any special interest in doing so.
No matter how much you make concessions and try to obey the rules, a surveillance app is always shady. Much like brothels still have a shady atmosphere even where it's legal. Some markets are so.
You could observe how Corporate MDM solutions approach the problem? For example, a replacement web browser, after forcing them to use the webapp? Actually use the MDM APIs?
As an aside, shaming someone out of a impulsive habit may not be sustainable. I'd say that you're trying to cure a symptom rather than create room for self-reflection and encourage them to chase down the missing pieces and identify the root cause.
Holding people accountable doesn't require shaming. Truple isn't a silver bullet, but it is a tool that can be incredibly helpful.
The MDM solutions all require enterprise developer accounts. I want to pursue one, but I hoped to get this resolved first.
Your software sounds like malware. If I came across it I would probably make a YARA rule against it to purge it from any managed network I control.
Your managed network sounds like malware. It intercepts, hijacks, records, blocks, etc. -- and all without the need for the user's continuous permission and knowledge.
I think that's a valid point. Does their managed network do monitoring? Isn't that as bad as this app?
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Our managed networks are company property and if you try to install spyware on it you'll be kicked off. All of that is in the contract that you sign when you join the workforce. It also is not your personal network to toy with.
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Some may not agree with the use of parental control/accountability software. That's fine. Truple is not designed for you. There are tons of people who are negatively impacted by technology and they desperately need/want help. They should have the option to get it, and there should be competition in the space to deliver the best product for them. In today's world, using the internet is a part of life, and isn't something you can reasonably go without. Truple was built to help people learn to use technology responsibly with the help of their loved ones.
The platform is wary of surveillance applications, which often have off-label use as stalking tools. It's not so much about whether people agree with parental controls or not; it's that Apple sets a different standard for intrusive parental control software than it does for other tools, because parental control tools are widely misused.
If that's the problem you're running up against here, and not that you somehow embedded malware/adware into your app that they screen for, I think you might have trouble getting anywhere with this.
Then why do they allow competitors to do it? They should be facing the same issues.
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Any software like this will, without fail, be used by abusers to do things other than blocking pornography. If it only did that one thing this wouldn't be a problem.
This app is lit. Can it track location or take photos from the camera (and selfie cam) from time to time? My circle of parents and friends are looking for something like this as there is rising concern of child abuse here.
If someone with access to the phone installs the app, will the monitoring be obvious to a user who is the handed the phone?
AKA if someone can install the app is it possible to use it to monitor someone without their knowledge?
There's a persistent notification that says "Truple - Screenshot Accountability" on it, and when it's clicked, it opens up the Truple app or menu depending on the platform. Competitors do a similar thing and aren't running into issues with Apple for it. If Apple had an issue with something like this, they should let me know and I'd adjust according to their feedback. I've asked--all I get back is silence.
Are you sure competitors aren't struggling with App review as well?
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Your app constantly surveils a subject and sends frequent random screen captures to a controller - no matter the activity.
In order to eliminate a few sexual behaviors you’ve created an application that has serious potential for abuse and control. A well functioning adult will simply have a burner phone and the infected phone will only be used for “approved” uses. A minor or abused adult will stop using the phone and probably be isolated as a result. Which of their friend or family will want to have even benign communication with the subject knowing this app is installed (because they will).
You’re not a victim here.
> You're not a victim here
If the app was just rejected I'd agree. Freezing the account, and then _years_ later suggesting the user create a new account makes no sense.
I think it makes sense if the goal is to never approve such an app. A rejection and subsequent tinkering might allow a derivative to make it through. Perhaps they believe in leaving such projects in purgatory and the developer unable to troubleshoot.
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I disagree, quite strongly.
Let's leave behind this app for a second, and speak in generalities. What should Apple do if it believes that an account is making and distributing spyware or malware? Should they not ban the account altogether? In fact, wouldn't you be mad if you found out that there were playing whack-a-mole with individual submissions from a developer that they'd already decided was harming end users? I personally would be pretty annoyed if it turns out that they let a malicious developer produce spyware and continually tweak and re-submit their apps it until the approvers let it through, and would absolutely support a policy of banning whole developer accounts for certain infractions. I doubt I am in the minority here, even if there are disagreements about what those ban-worthy infractions should be.
So, the question here is whether or not this app is spyware or not. I personally am beginning to suspect yes, both because parental software always toes that line, and based the apps marketing and the developer's comments in this forum. Others might disagree. But while it's reasonable to disagree about whether this is spyware, given the above logic I think we can agree that it's perfectly reasonable for Apple to ban an account that it has determined is making spyware. You should disagree with the determination, and understand that the ban follows that determination directly.
Personally I think the weirdest thing here is the recommendation to make a new account. Generally most companies hate it when you try and recreate an account after a prior ban, and an official recommendation here seems quite odd.
Fortunately you have an android app, so you are able to use available statistics to estimate loss of earnings.
That may be enough to generate enough interest for you to find some form of "no win no fee" legal representation on a matter which I admittedly have no clue about.
Good luck!
I've thought about this... but Apple's developer agreement has some wording in it that makes me believe it may not be possible. I'm no lawyer, so it's certainly something I could ask if I go the legal route.
Thanks for the suggestion!
> Apple shall not be responsible for any costs, expenses, damages, losses or other liabilities You may incur as a result of Your Application development, use of the Apple Software, Apple Services (including this digital notary service), or Apple Certificates, tickets, or participation in the Program, including without limitation the fact that Apple performs security checks on Your Application.
https://developer.apple.com/support/downloads/terms/apple-de...
I think this would depend on your jurisdiction. Just because it's in the terms doesn't make it enforceable.
This is the main reason why I am not interested in being an app developer. Your business is in the hands of someone who can cut you off and get away with not even giving you the time of day. Not worth the risk.
(That being said: I'm not sure I would have approved an app like yours since it is designed to invade privacy)
The hesitancy to approve is understood on my part. Have a child who's negatively impacted by tech though, or be married to someone who is, or attend an addiction recovery group for any online addiction, and you'll be persuaded otherwise. Apple allows parental control apps.
The business in this case is from a religious extremist and this kind of software is very frequently used without the user's consent.
Do you have any evidence of the software being used without the end user's consent?
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That's very libelous of you.
You may like you and your young children being able to stream unlimited hardcore pornography to their iPads, but that doesn't mean other people have to like and allow it for themselves.
That is a frankly bigoted statement and one I'm use to seeing more on Reddit than HN. It is designed to be used voluntarily, or as parental controls for children. This is not $evilTechCompany coming to suck up all of your data.
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Isn't that all electronic businesses? I don't think anyone except maybe netflix actually controls their entire networking infrastructure. CDNs and cloud computing businesses make arbitrary decisions all the time. Payment processors, publishers..
To a greater or lesser degree yes, but there are things you can do to safeguard your business.
I don't think the biggest risk is really your hosting environment, but domain names. That's the one link in the chain that can really make life miserable if you were to lose your domain name. Which in effect is your identity. You can find replacement service providers for hosting. It may take you a bit of time to move things, but there isn't a lack of choice. It is harder to deal with losing a domain name that is essentially your brand.
However, I know several businesses whose product only runs on AWS and would need a ground-up rewrite to run anywhere else. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is exceptionally poor risk management and if I were to find myself in this situation I'd have nobody else to blame but myself.
And this is transitive: if you are a customer of a product that is tied 100% to a single infrastructure provider and they are critical to your business, you must have a contingency plan in case they get into trouble.
Parental control sounds like something the OS should do, not an app. From that viewpoint, I think you chose an application that inherently has a risk of being taken over by Apple, and frankly, you should not be surprised that something like this happened.
Whether I agree or not, they aren't doing it. They've had decades to build it in, but what is built in sucks and is easily bypassed. See https://protectyoungeyes.com/12-ingenious-screen-time-hacks-....
While I wasn't so aware of the risk when I started, I've learned plenty about it over the past 4.5 years.
> frankly, you should not be surprised that something like this happened. Did you read the whole description? The surprising thing is the unfair (unequal) treatment, the silence on their part, and the long delay.
I thought the point is that it is easily bypassed or disabled, so in a coercive or sensitive situation the physical holder of the phone can take control.
Ok, but with parental control you are trying to control other apps. Apple does not like that. They want apps to stay in their own sandbox and mind their own business. I agree with you, but given Apple's strong determination to control everything on their platform, what you tried was just doomed to fail from the start.
Sounds like an invasion of privacy that will be forced on people who can't provide meaningful consent.
A computer sounds like a hacking device used for ransomware. Just because a tool has one possible negative use (which I do everything I can think of to protect against) doesn't discount it's valid use cases and bar it from being used.
2.5 years sounds pretty extreme. Not from Apples part (its pretty on-brand), but on your part.. To me it sounds like it would be time to just leave the platform behind and move on with your life? Ask yourself is it really worthwhile to fight the uphill battle against Apple to get your app approved?
Is it really a fight though? Presumably they send a letter every x month, and do other things with their life in the meantime.
I don't intend to throw in the towel until I've exhausted my options. I'd hoped that being patient would garner favor with Apple. This has proven it doesn't.
Personally speaking, I also fear rejection/failure. Dealing with this has been extremely difficult for me emotionally.
You develop stalkerware, Apple booting apps like you is one of the few good aspects of the app store.
This is factually incorrect - it is not stalkerware. The app makes it very clear that it is installed and watching you.
Read other Reddit+HN threads on what other people have done in your situation.
The main way that people get accounts reinstated in cases like these are the situation blowing up on HN and a lot of people getting upset (at Apple/Google (the other major offender)). This is unlikely to work in your case, because (judging by the comments) a lot of people are offended by the very idea that you'd develop an app to help people overcome a porn addiction, and additionally are withholding useful advice and making false/deceptive claims[1] as a result.
Your best shot is to look for actual legal advice given to other people in your situation and see if you can follow it.
Kudos to you for developing something like this, by the way - I might use the Android version to get accountability for myself. If you look carefully, you'll see the the majority of objections that the other comments are making are riddled with misunderstandings, deception, and moral outrage - I can't see a single legitimate argument that your project is actually harmful.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29571229
Yikes, this app is gross. Good on Apple for keeping you off their store.
I make rather nerdy music and art apps full time, and being shut down by Apple still worries me. What if I said the wrong thing on twitter? Very unlikely but it pisses me off that they can push the cancel button on by business. I didn't really realize this until the past few years, with significant time invested in the platform.
It seems like this discussion should be raised up a level. We can debate the merits of the app itself, but then that leads to opposing, valid arguments. The app's creator can assert the numerous beneficial uses of the app. Detractors can note the potential for misuse/abuse. Neither is necessarily a winning argument in an objective sense. And thus, we need some arbiter. In this case, that arbiter is Apple, who in this case, must anger some subset of the people on this thread.
So really, the debate is "who is a valid arbiter?" On what basis should the authority to deny access to a platform/market be granted or revoked? It seems that discussion is, to date, wholly inadequate.
If Apple did not retain such tight control over iOS app distribution (and considerably looser controls over Mac app distribution), then they would still have a moral obligation to help their customers defend against malware. And this application is definitely close enough to being malware that Apple would have to assess it as a potential threat and at least consider the possibility of blocking it.
You can't exclude Apple from having to make a judgement call here unless you want Apple to be thoroughly hands-off about security and privacy concerns to an extent that was really harmful to Microsoft's reputation back when they weren't taking security at all seriously.
This sucks. :(
Apple is a closed ecosystem, and building on a closed ecosystem always carries the risk that the ecosystem owner will decide an individual or company just can't play. But that doesn't make it better; it's just a risk to be aware of.
Apple, Google and Microsoft might just stop you as they get a better cut from the multimillion dollar app partners. Or your app might have some libraries that are having security issues.
I'd happily change the libs if there was an issue. I'm not aware of any and Apple hasn't indicated any. I take effort to keep libraries up to date, but certainly don't have everything on latest.
Do you embed any monitoring, performance tracking, revenue-generation, advertising, or tracing tools in the app? Did you at any previous time?
(I think it's just as likely that you're pattern-matching against stalker software that Apple screens for, just by dint of what your app does).
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This is going to sound facetious, but at what point do you have to create an entirely new identity for yourself? Change your name, perhaps get a passport from another nation that legally sells citizenship, perhaps get a new SSN, just to get around issues like this?
I guess an alternative would be to rent the identity of a homeless person, or perhaps the ID of someone on death row?
Many people have warned against mechanisms like app notarization. Ironically the few exceptions that can warrant such a system are apps like yours.
Some still say that is makes computing secure, but I think the arguments are mostly stupid or dishonest.
I don't know what you could do, I would not buy into their ecosystem.
Stop tending other peoples' gardens. I don't write software for any device if I need to ask permission from some faceless billion dollar corporation. I write software I can manage myself.
Small claims court?
I am not a lawyer, but I doubt if Small Claims Court would be useful. I doubt if a judge would/could compel Apple to restore your Developer account. The best you might expect from that route might be to get Apple to refund any fees you paid for the Developer account.
He doesn't have a small claim, he wants a specific performance, that is he would be suing to have a judge force Apple to contract with his business. For that, with that opponent, you would need a whole legal team.
Thanks for the suggestion. If I can't get anywhere with "going public" about the issue, that's the only other potential solution I can think of. Not one I want to have to use though...
Small claims court is for what it sounds like - small claims (< 5-10k depending on state).
Well what you encountered here is IMHO a problem of power, not a problem with your App, guidelines, your marketing, or whatever. The problem is that a third party has the power to stop your customers from using your software. Many people don't have a problem with that until they are negatively affected by it: It's fine to block [insert whatever kind of shitty software you don't like], it's for the users own good afterall.
You are under apples control on the iOS market. And, in my opinion, that's a bad thing. We should try to denormalize this kind of power.
To answer your question: I don't think you can do anything about that especially since your app(judging form the other comments here on HN) ended up on the wrong side of history.
This situation reminds me of a nice little poem by Martin Niemöller:
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.
Wow, what an absolute mess of a thread. Awful comments.
Fundamentally, you are doing some things that require special entitlements and you are not on the short list of those entitlements.
This has always happened, be it with explicit software entitlement or just with "off limits" areas.
I suggest you find a business partner with better connections. You won't be able to force Apple to notarize your thing...
This is my favorite app for stalking my wife! its incredible!
Ignore the people calling you malware here. They’re just Apple fanboys who have never tried to run a business before.
Your app sounds like it offers real value and is actually innovating. Apple is destroying your business at their discretion, for seemingly no reason.
Have you consulted with any lawyers? If they’re suspending your account without any cause, I think that counts as a breach of contract on their end. And if there were are a lot of competitors popping up in the past 2.5 years, you could potentially even calculate some hefty damages beyond just the $99/year Apple tax.
I appreciate this. Thank you. I'm sorry you were down voted at my defense.
> Your app sounds like it offers real value and is actually innovating. Apple is destroying your business at their discretion, for seemingly no reason. People really get fired up about apps like this, but few people can say they've built software that has saved marriages and helped parents to raise their children. I honestly can and am honored and grateful to be able to do it.
I have not yet consulted lawyers on it. That's one of the next steps I'd been considering if I can't make "going public" helpful.
They weren't downvoted for your defense; they were downvoted for belittling everyone else on the thread, which is straightforwardly against the HN guidelines, which you can read via the link at the bottom of the page.
I see a lot of people here who are critical of the app you're trying to sell but also doing their best to be helpful. If you're looking for a cheering section, you're probably not going to find it here; you asked a question in your post, and it is being answered, thoughtfully and thoroughly.
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That is a seriously creepy app.
Glad to hear you were blocked.
Short version: Nothing.
Long version: Nothing; get over it.
Also, you've been paying for a locked developer account for 2.5 years?
I think we will be moving back to web apps (PWA). The app store was always a hack and the web3 movement is incompatable with app stores.
I'm working on a mobile browser for PWAs https://apps.apple.com/ca/app/wapps-private-minimal-browser/...
moving everything into the browser is a bad fix for broken software distribution.
Why? (and i'm not suggesting moving everything to the browser)
Web3 is its own ecosystem fortunately
Its just the people trying to provide a service to a crowd that still needs to be onboarded to Web3 who find the problems
Just cater to Web3 users, there are trillions of dollars of value already in the ecosystem which can be used for investment, revenue, goods and services
The people that want dollars are such a small portion at any given point in time, which is perfect
I’ve never thought “wish this was on the App Store”
I'm not in support of censorship, surveillance, locked-down devices. I think you should have moved on within months of being banned for creating this thing. Your responses are odd to me as well. Use some self-control and restraint and stop looking at porn if it's an issue to you. While I would certainly not wish for anyone to lose their livelihood, to me it seems that you've had plenty of ample time to go off and develop something else on another platform. Best of luck to you. Please don't make any more censorship/surveillance apps.
Edit to add: I've also got several children and have been married for 12 years. I would not install anything like this for any of them. If you can't trust your wife, you can't trust your wife. Just the way it is. Spying on her, and spying on your children is gross and does not create any sort of trust.