Comment by jzb
2 years ago
"It’s rude to put someone in a position where they have to say no to you"
I feel this in my bones. When I was a kid my dad went off on me after we visited someone's house and I saw cake on the counter and asked for a slice. That was just unacceptable. (Context: He was raised by people who lived through the depression. Food scarcity was a real thing in living memory.)
Even though his reaction was way overboard, I still believe this. Let people offer things, don't ask. (With a lot of caveats depending on context...)
That may work relatively well with consumables like food. But it extends in many directions. I have fans and a space heater and extra blankets and etc. All of them are available for a houseguest to use. Many of them are stored in the guest room.
I've had "guess culture" people stay over. Really, in my mind they don't even need to ask. They're already welcome to take an extra blanket. But they won't even ask, and they certainly wouldn't presume. They are indeed waiting on me to say "oh, if you're warm the fan can be plugged in, and there's some extra blankets in the closet if you want". Though in my mind, I don't need to say that. And if I don't say it they may go very uncomfortable.
I'm most used to giving such reassurances to children, and to give them to adults seems a little infantilizing. But that's my relatively "ask culture" background in action, probably.
That's a great example. Unfortunately it's also not super helpful to dichotomize the difference, because most people are a mix of both in different ways.
For example, under extreme stress or illness, a lot of "ask" people will turn into "guess what I want or life hates me" people.
And it's not exactly unheard of for guessers to turn into power-trippers under stress and become over-direct when just a little bit of directness is a better idea.
Sometimes guessers even use this entire us-them concept as a way to subtly preach to askers, but really it's a two-way street. If you've ever lived or worked under an unethical or abusive guesser, you may have developed a very strong sense of the hypocrisy of the "askers are blunt and mean" comparison which often comes out in discussions with guessers.
Fortunately though there is a lot of nuance to work with on both sides in most cases. (And again, dichotomizing this is not great in so many ways)
Well, exactly - it's about things like consumables where you're asking to take something. For example, "may I have a glass of water?" would have been fine with my dad. (And it was drummed into me it's rude not to offer somebody at least a glass of water when they're in your house!)
Basic comfort items where you're not using up someone's limited resources == no problem.
> to give them to adults seems a little infantilizing
The 'mi casa es su casa / make yourself at home' concept is perfectly normal and won't cause offense to anyone, surely?
I don’t think that concept in itself causes offense, but the fact that guests often don’t dare to actually live by it and prefer to be a little cold over an extra blanket…
First, you should let people know, that if they need anything, they can ask.
Then, there are levels. If it's just on the edge of being colder than I'd like, I might not say anything because the effort isn't worth it. It's 65 instead of 70, I'll live. But if you ask me tomorrow how was it, I'll tell you, "Slightly cooler than I'm used to, but no problem". And people will make a fuss and say "Well, why didn't you aaaassssk" Because, like I also said, it wasn't a problem.
Are they supposed to just know the blankets are in your closet?
I think someone could say they are cold and ask for more blankets, and the owner could say they don't have any more blankets
They're supposed to ask
Borrowing a fan purposed built for guests is not an imposition, and a imposition is what "ask" people have no problem with.
Well to offer the other side. What if they don’t know you have these things readily available?
While I was studying Japanese, I learned that they go out of their way to make it so the other person doesn't have to refuse with a "no". For instance, they'll ask, "Do you not have X?" instead of "Do you have X?" The person can answer "Yes, we don't have it" or "It's over here".
I actually made this mistake, asking for a product directly instead of negatively, when I was in Tokyo. The clerk took me to the aisle and said, "If we had it, it'd be here." And there was no space for it. Took me a couple times to realize what had happened.
I've heard that the "do you not have" phrasing was used in polite Soviet-era Russian, leading to a joke about a customer who walks into a shop and sees all the shelves are empty:
- Excuse me, do you not have any bread? - Sorry, this is a butcher's shop. We don't have any meat. The bakery is across the road. They're the shop that doesn't have any bread.
There may be an obvious language barrier here, but the coupling of a positive with a negative response feels very odd to me in English. I'm reminded of the old song (it was used for an advertising jingle for a product or company I can't remember) "Yes, we have no bananas!"
Adjacently, I really dislike the courtroom phrasing "Isn't it true?" that is sometimes depicted in legal dramas.
Indeed.
>"Do you not have X?"
In my head it sounds belligerent and accusatory. While the other form sounds polite.
This negative phrasing to induce a positive response, may be a Japan only thing?
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I have noticed the same thing. A "yes" or "no" answer could refer to the truth-value of the situation or to the polarity used in the question.
I personally avoid this construction at all costs. When someone asks a negative question, I reply with "you're right" instead of "yes" to mean I agree with the negativity.
The clerk just meant they didn't know for sure :)
I think there's a misunderstanding somewhere because in Japan "do you have X" and "do you not have X" would elicit the same response in the negative case (something like "I'm sorry, we're out of stock"). There's no reason for the speaker to say "no" either way.
This is as usual not universal.
First, in shops people clearly ask for whether they have something.
It's super common for clothes and shoes stores to have more sizes in the back. I might ask the negative form when I think it's likely they don't have the size for a reason, e.g. if the same shirt in a different color is laid out in my size. "You don't have this one in XS (like that other one here)?"
In situations where you expect a product to be stocked right there in its usual place but it's not there it's natural to ask in the negative. Ex: bakery that usually has a full tray of croissants has an empty one / or none at all. If you can guess it it's also natural to ask specifically if they sold out.
In situations where it's not clear if a shop even has a certain product / size or if you cannot find one and you are looking, it's definitely not unexpected to ask positively. Ex: Asking whether a different option is available, or a different flavour than the one you see in front of you, or "do you have this particular vinyl from ...?" (it would be super odd to ask negatively in that last case).
Often actually both work and choosing the negative form IMO is harder to get right.
There isn't really an inappropriateness component, and frankly the clerk in your example either was rude or they simply said "if it's not on this shelf, we unfortunately don't have it". And to be honest, I don't see how their response would have been different if you had asked negatively.
Maybe if you said "You don't have this, right?" the clerk would have said "that's right", but in general, if you ask "do you have" vs. "do you not have" should almost always result in the same apology that unfortunately they don't.
> If we had it, it'd be here.
Isn't this just the standard response when the clerk is not sure? Bring you to the relevant section and let you look for yourself.
At the end of the day, if you’re firmly on either end of the spectrum it comes down to the same thing: you’re putting all responsibility of the social interaction on the other person. Because your position is fixed and theirs is (possibly) not, you’re making it their fault if the communication style doesn’t work. It leads to much frustration on both sides.
In your example, if you have a fixed position of « Let people offer things, don't ask », you’re putting all responsibility on the other person: they have to adapt to your style or they’ll be the bad guy. Even though the other end of the spectrum (« express your desires, don’t make people guess ») is just as self-consistent and valid.
Camping at either end of the spectrum is putting yourself as a victim, it’s using the other person’s brain rather than your own to make the interaction pleasant. As in most things: extremes and inflexibility don’t work with the subtleties of reality
Wonderfully stated.
I didn't understand the article until I read your comment!
I'd never point at someone's cake in someone's house and ask for a slice.
Except for a really good friend, but I'd simply point to his cake and tell him I'm going to eat it. He would either say yes or tell me why I couldn't and neither of us would take offence either way.
I've learnt to shoot down inappropriate ask request right away. Lending you money? No, I don't lent out money.
Life pro tip: never tell people you have money.
My grandmother said you’d offer food to guests because you knew they were hungry and they’d refuse because they knew you didn’t have enough for yourself. If you actually had enough food for a meal you needed to convince your houseguest.
That's the reason, I avoid going to relatives home as guests. They would compel and force me to eat something that I don't prefer. I won't be able to politely decline them as I'm from guess culture.
Why wouldn't you be able to decline them? I have relatives like that too whose insistence is seen as politeness but even they will back off after some time, especially if (but it's not needed for you to) explain why you decline.
And a polite way to do this is to suggest the thing you want, rather than directly asking for it. You could complement the cake - oh, that looks delicious; what's the occasion? Or, "I'm moving next weekend - looking forward to the new place, but it's going to be a big job!" It is uncomfortable being asked something that you have to say no to, but that doesn't mean we have to just hope people will guess our needs unassisted.
In "guess culture" they can't offer you help unless they're certain you won't decline the offer. So they'd have to figure out first if you're hiring movers, and if not ascertain whether you already have enough friends helping you, and if not _then_ they'd offer to help you.
I agree with the other commenters who say that guess culture is exhausting.
Maybe that's how it works somewhere, but it's hard for me to imagine. It can definitely be an imposition to _ask_ someone directly for help moving, as indeed they might feel obligated to agree. But it seems much less likely in a real-world context that offering someone your help would oblige them to accept. It's perfectly reasonable to explain that you have it worked out already, so you appreciate the offer but it's not necessary.
"Guess culture" could certainly be exhausting if you over-complicate it like that, but it's not necessary.
That’s not the case. Offering help is just fine.
I'm not spending game night constantly asking all my guests all the possible things (water, caffeine, booze, food, bathroom, chair, cushion, warmer, colder, more light, less light, music, different music, louder music, quieter music, pet my dog, etc, etc, fucking etc). If you want something, YOU ask for it, which is polite.
But.....if you have an incredibly expensive or special, unopened bottle of wine sitting off in a corner and your guest asks if he can open it.....that is grounds to be excommunicated off the earth. Don't do that, it's incredibly tacky, reeks of entitlement and puts your host in a awkward position.
“No, it’s a special bottle“ The guest asked and got an answer. Is it tacky and reeks of entitlement, Yes, it does not haves to become awkward
I suppose different people will have different tastes, but I will never agree that this is rude and that you should not ask. You should not be upset when declined, but that is another matter.
The problem is that people do get upset. Basically, you're forcing someone else to be the asshole by saying no or justify why they don't want to share or do something.
Rudeness is, of course, a subjective thing. Some people think it's rude to wear shoes indoors, some people think it's rude to make specific gestures that are either OK or meaningless to me.
My wife is an asker. It's a definite challenge at times...
The rude thing is to not offer any reward in return for you, if you agree to their request.
It's just saying they want to take advantage of you if you fall for it. Making such a request means that they are happy to take advantage of you as long as you let them. Is that unethical?
Think of it this way: You own a truly valuable stamp but you don't know its value. Then somebody who knows its value offers to exchange it for their stamp of much lesser value, without telling you what they know about its value.
It may not be unethical, businesses are based on such behavior. Buy low and sell high to make a profit. But when you see such behavior by your friends or neighbors or colleagues, be aware. They are the kind of people who are happy to take advantage of you.
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Therein lies the problem. "Ask" people force someone to say no and saying no is considered rude. "Guess" people are then forced to be rude when they don't want to be rude, and knowing this, are forced to be polite and give in to your demand. Obviously there is nothing sinister going on here, but unwittingly, "Ask" people are creating a uncomfortable situation for people who consider it rude to decline a request.
It's rude to expect other people to be able guess what you want.
If you want something, ask me. I don't have crippling confidence issues so saying no is not a problem for me.
All good and meaningful relationships involve give and take, and sometimes saying no, so this reduces to "it's rude to have close human relationships with people" (because close human relationships necessarily involve sometimes saying no).
There is an argument that such a worldview is slightly pathological.
There are ways around that, by phrasing questions in a different way so the other person does not have to respond with a hard "no". Yes, this requires prior acquaintance with that communication culture, and integration by relative outsiders can be difficult.
Sorry but this is bullshit and putting the onus on the wrong person. “No” is a complete sentence and I don’t see the problem with using it, if you do (after say, I’ve asked for you a slice of cake) but can’t think of another phrasing (“I’m afraid not”, “maybe after you dinner”, “ask your father”; there are endless possibilities - especially when dealing with children) then the issue is your vocabulary, and not my failure to bend over backwards phrasing the question so do you don’t have to say the, apparently dreaded, word “no”.
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As I said upthread - lots of caveats and it's context dependent. For one thing, this usually assumed there was not a "close human relationship" but social situations where you aren't that close.
It has to be OK to say no. In many scenarios or cultures it is considered rude to say no. So if you're not able to gracefully say no without being considered rude, it's correspondingly rude to ask because you're basically saying "do this for me or else you're rude."
It's not an ask at that point, it's a demand. If I'm the asshole if I say no, then I don't want to be asked the question in the first place.
How does that work in dating? If you are afraid of making people uncomfortable by asking them out, escalating things and putting them in situations where they have to say no to you, you may just end up being single for life.
Not at all related to dating, but this makes me think of the Curb Your Enthusiasm scene where Larry David's mother died while he was in New York on vacation and his father didn't want to "inconvenience" Larry out of respect for her dying wishes: "don't bother Larry".
Great scene and tangentially related to your premise.
Clearly that isn’t the case, given that ask culture has perpetuated itself.
Something like this: “I was thinking of seeing New Movie” “Oh, I’ve been wanting to see that” “I’m going Friday after work. You could join me if that sounds good.” “I’d like that!”
It’s not hard. You establish if someone is open to a date and it’s okay to ask if you’re getting the encouragement to do so. If you’re not, you drop it and save both parties the awkwardness of saying no.
And miss out a lot...
I can honestly say I don't regret a policy of not asking people for things in general. If somebody wants me to have some of their cake, or whatever, then I'm usually happy to accept. But I can't think of a time when I am like "gee, I missed out by not asking for that thing."
The cake could also be asking for a raise, or a discount, really any other any opportunity that’s not as low-stakes as an item of food
You can set the stage to be offered, by asking about something adjacent to what you want. Compliments also help.
"This is a beautiful cake. What's it for? Is there a celebration?"
If you are not offered a slice after that, assume you can't have one.
Ugh hard disagree. You can say the word no, it’s fine.