Comment by surume

1 year ago

Hi All, I am a combat soldier and commander in the IDF currently fighting in Gaza.

We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not.

Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them.

We risk ourselves and our soldiers to ensure that the fewest number of non-combatants get killed. We have lost many of our own soldiers because of this. It would be much easier for us to just bomb everything from the air but we dont, because it's less precise than going in on foot.

Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th.

We will continue the fight with them until our military objectives are met, and we will also engage Hizbollah on the northern border for exactly the same reasons (Hamas actually stole their plan and used it on October 7th - Hezbollah had planned to do it in the north but much worse).

Israel is the canary in the coal mine. What happens to us today will happen to you tomorrow, so before you give your full throated support to Hamas, let me ask you, would you want October 7th to happen to your family and friends? If Hamas aren't stopped, that same attack will happen around the world.

Please support us and help rid the world of violent terrorism, and maybe one day, we can all live in peace.

Shabbat Shalom!

67 comments

surume

Reply
YeGoblynQueenne  1 year ago

>> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not.

According to Omer Bartov, scholar of genocide, the criterion for genocide is that there is intent to commit genocide:

The crime of genocide was defined in 1948 by the United Nations as “the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/10/opinion/israel-gaza-genoc...

There are numerous articles in the press reporting on mass graves of Palestinians killed in the war, in Gaza. For example:

Palestinians digging mass graves inside al-Shifa hospital, health official says (14 November 2023, Al Shifa hospital)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/14/people-flee-no...

Bodies are being buried in a mass grave at Gaza City’s largest hospital, health officials say. (14 November, Al Shifa)

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/14/world/israel-hamas-g...

More than 100 Palestinian bodies buried in mass grave in Gaza (22 November, Khan Younis)

https://news.sky.com/video/more-than-100-palestinian-bodies-...

"All the cemetaries are full': Palestinians buried in a mass grave in Gaza (23 November, Khan YOunis)

https://www.reuters.com/pictures/all-cemeteries-are-full-pal...

Israel Gaza: Drone shots show Palestinians buried in Rafah mass grave (26 December, Rafah)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-67825385

etc etc.

  • matsemann  1 year ago

    Itv filmed Palestinian civilians waving a white flag being shot and killed by Israel this week.

    "No intention to kill civilians" says this "soldier". Just pure lies.

HDThoreaun  1 year ago

> but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible

And how many hostages has the war gotten back so far?

> we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza

There is no realistic plan for ending Hamas. The more Hamas fighters you kill the more Gazans join. You can take temporary control of the government, but Isarelis in Gaza and anyone who works with them will be targeted by terrorists until the end of time. Eventually israel will get sick of the attacks and pull out, and Hamas will immediately regain control of the government.

The obvious end game here is a return to the pre october 7th status quo with increased border security to ensure oct. 7th doesnt happen again. When will we admit that the hostages can not be saved and move to that end game?

bitcurious  1 year ago

>Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people, but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible, and we cannot allow Hamas to continue ruling Gaza and attacking our civilians as they did on October 7th.

I'm curious about this - the idea that both goals are achievable is a fiction. You either get the hostages, or you eliminate Hamas. Do y'all talk about this?

  • surume  1 year ago

    Why can't we do both? We talk about it a lot. Until now, we have not succeeded, but maybe we can pressure Hamas to let them go, and then eliminate Hamas in a future round of fighting?

tomp  1 year ago

Hi there, I personally admire the work you do, I fully support Israel in it's war against evil, I hope you eradicate Hamas (ideally they would all surrender, but that's unlikely, so the other option is they get killed) as soon as you can. If you doubt any of these words, check out my tweets/likes (@tomprimozic)

However, there's 3 "contentious" points that I want to ask (my go-to Jewish (& very pro-Israel) close friend is currently very far away and has his own issues - not that you don't, but since you posted here...)

1. What's your comment on "Hamas headquarters below Al Shifa hospital"?

2. Why do IDF soldiers shoot (and post) videos of them "mocking"/"disrespecting" Palestinian homes/mosques/schools?

3. What's the steelman argument of why Israel is "occupying" the West Bank? The best I can come up with is "they didn't occupy Gaza and look what happened", but (a) that wasn't known before Oct7, and (b) they would have IMO gained a lot of goodwill abroad if they had given it more autonomy...

  • surume  1 year ago

    Thank you for the kind words. Will reach out when I get home next. Been a long day - we did a big mission today and I'm wiped so please excuse the short answers.

    1. Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch.

    2. Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, they raped our women, tortured them and then murdered them. They did the same to our men, old people and children. Imagine for a second if a specific group did all that to lots of people that you loved and cared for. How would you feel? What would you post as you took your revenge? Israel is a tiny country. Everyone knows everyone. Everyone is related to everyone, or is at least friends with them on some way. So the disrespect is because they are furious with our enemy, and our enemy identifies specifically as religious muslims and arabs. Hard stuff.

    3. Oh wow that's a hard one. It's complicated. We're in a war to claim territory with the Palestinians. I mean, you could reverse the question and ask "why are the Palestinians occupying Israeli land". The Palestinians arent a people, per se. They are the random groups of different arab families that were living in the area at the time of the creation of the state of israel. Some are from iran, some from Syria, some from Jordan, egypt, etc. so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them".

    Really what needs to happen is that we need to be separated. We can't continue to live in an intermingled fashion like this because it's too messy and unsustainable.

    But.... that's a problem for another day. For today we just need to deal with Hamas and Hezbollah.

    Good night =)

    • YeGoblynQueenne  1 year ago

      >> Hamas was located in a significant want under Al-shifa. Israel released video of our commando unit raiding it. You can find that video online. Hard to watch.

      I can't find that video online. I can find a video that shows a tunnel, allegedly under Al Shifa, and ending in a blast door.

      IDF publishes footage of what it says is Hamas tunnel at al-Shifa hospital

      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/19/idf-israel-arm...

      I cannot find any "hard to watch" video of "commando units raiding" the tunnel. Do you have a direct link to such a video?

      Note that the claim was not that there was a "significant [ward?]" under the Al-Shifa hospital. The claim was that Hamas had its headquarters under Al-Shifa.

      For example, this claim was made by Isaac Herzog, the President of Israel, in an interview with Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC, where Isaac Herzog claimed IDF is not actually attacking Al-Shifa:

      [my transcript]: Undrerneath Shifa there is a huge huge terror base, actually the headquarters, the headquarters of Hamas Isis operations is right there under Shifa.

      https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67397963?at_med...

      So far, no such "yuge yuge terror base" has been found under Al-Shifa, or under any of the other hospitals targeted by the IDF.

    • tomp  1 year ago

      1. and 2. make sense, thank you for your reply, especially given you've more important things to worry about!

      regarding 3: I don't want to get into the "who's land it is" debate (I generally agree with your description from a historical perspective, but I also think that historical perspective is largely irrelevant).

      But mostly a practical issue: why wasn't it (with the exception of Jerusalem and some other Jewish "holy" sites) treated more like Gaza (i.e. withdrawal, as opposed to building of more settlements)?

      Obviously that wouldn't satisfy everyone everywhere (especially not the "open air prison" crowd) but I think it would have given Israel much more legitimacy - one of the crucial criticisms in the past few years was "taking Palestinian land to build Israeli settlements".

      What I'm trying to understand, is why they did that? Probably not for the lack of land. Nationalist reasons? Maybe, but I don't see the potential massive gain there, to offset the (IMO) massive loss in internaional reputation from "occupying West Bank".

      And in addition it would defuse at least a part of Hamas's justification for the Oct7 attack (the other, the Al Aqsa issue, obviously being fake, and of course that old "hate Jews" motivation wouldn't go away...).

      Anyways I completely understand if you'd rather not have this discussion, I still hope you win soon!

    • metabro  1 year ago

      >Because they're angry and they're being stupid and reacting emotionally. Please understand, they raped our women, tortured them and then murdered them. They did the same to our men, old people and children.

      I have to point out that you are holding soldiers of a wealthy country to the same standards as a terrorist organization in one of the poorest parts of the world. It contradicts the claim that Israel is a bastion of civilization in the region. The behavior of the Israeli soldiers is despicable and your explanation seems to downplay and rationalize it.

    • frob  1 year ago

      > so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them".

      And that, right there, is a genocidal mindset.

      A huge goal of genocide is destroying the identity of a people. This is going to the next step. This is denying they exist at all.

    • Sporktacular  1 year ago

      > "I mean, you could reverse the question and ask "why are the Palestinians occupying Israeli land".

      How? The West Bank, Golan. This is not the State of Israel's land. Never was. But it's being taken regardless. Israel's security justification might be taken seriously if it wasn't simultaneously supporting settlers who steal land. Stop them and you will find more international support.

      > The Palestinians arent a people, per se. They are the random groups of different arab families that were living in the area at the time of the creation of the state of israel. Some are from iran, some from Syria, some from Jordan, egypt, etc. so we are not "occupying" their land because there is no "them".

      This borders on racism and it still doesn't make the land they occupy yours. You need a stronger clam than conquest or an old book.

      7 replies →

    • leereeves  1 year ago

      > why are the Palestinians occupying Israeli land?

      How can you write that when you immediately answer your own question?

      > [they] were living in the area at the time of the creation of the state of israel.

      It really makes Israel sound colonialist. As does saying "We're in a war to claim territory with the Palestinians."

riscy  1 year ago

> The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not.

The rubble of the numerous civilian homes and buildings you've leveled are the mass graves.

Aeolun  1 year ago

> would you want October 7th to happen to your family and friends?

Obviously not. I just believe you are going about it the entirely wrong way if you want to prevent it.

How many Oct 7’s do you think this one-sided conflict will spawn?

  • surume  1 year ago

    What is your proposed alternative that you're alluding to? That seems oddly missing in your comment.

    • Aeolun  1 year ago

      Good question, I’m fairly certain that doing exactly nothing, while of course politically untenable, would be preferable to this.

      Kind of a “we don’t negotiate with terrorists” kind of deal.

      Find the kidnappers and then surgically take them out. If you’ve no clue how to do that get your single big ally to help you out with that, as they have about 20 years of experience doing exactly that thing.

      Even better if your lack of response causes a rift/break in the ranks of your opponents, and half of the hostages get released without conflict.

      Of course you’ll eventually have to resign and apologize to the public because it’s much easier for them to be bloodthirsty.

      And then, Israel’s PM is bloodthirsty themselves, so it’s all an exercise in futility anyway.

      2 replies →

    • HDThoreaun  1 year ago

      Return to pre october 7th status quo but without the soft on border security stuff. Israel easily has the military capability to lock down the border.

throw__away7391  1 year ago

In general when there is an accusation of genocide, is a statement of denial from a soldier of the accused side considered good evidence?

  • SomeoneFromCA  1 year ago

    The whole his post feel so righteous and cliche prpaganda, I am almost feeling bad for him.

    • rsoto2  1 year ago

      You should feel bad for people whose humanity was stolen from them.

      "A Journalist asked him" "how many children, how many people could be killed, to justify this operation? Is there an upper limit, where you think this is just to much this does not compute this does not add up?

      "That congressman, couldn't give a number. And I thought to myself, -that man has been corrupted. That man has lost himself. He's lost himself in humiliation. He's lost himself in vengeance. He has lost himself in violence.

      I keep hearing this term repeated over and over again "the right to self defense"

      What about the right to dignity? What about the right to morality? What about the right to be able to sleep at night?

      Because I know that If I was complicit, and I am complicit, in dropping bombs on children. In dropping bombs on refugee camps. No matter who is there. It would give me trouble sleeping at night, and I worry for the souls of people who can do this, and can sleep at night." -Ta-Nehisi Coates

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_df_u7yJj3k

matsemann  1 year ago

> so before you give your full throated support to Hamas, let me ask you

This is a straw man. Condemning IDFs slaughtering of children isn't the same as supporting Hamas. I condemn both.

nashashmi  1 year ago

> there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields

When you say things like this, I know that you are either spreading IDF propaganda or have been wired to believe IDF propaganda. Either way it is telling what soldiers are experiencing.

None of the things you stated are any different than what IDF associated press has stated. This makes your post incredibly suspect.

As this is HN, and we welcome on-the-ground views, we are not finding too much info about what is actually happening from the ground view in your post.

matsemann  1 year ago

> We are not committing any genocide. The give away for Genocide is that there are mass graves, which in Gaza there are not.

How many Hamas terrorists have you killed compared to the now over 10 000 children?

The fact that there is no one to bury them doesn't mean it's not a genocide, come on..

> so we have no choice but to kill them too

When you fire at children playing in the streets, you had a choice. If you can't see that, you've lost all humanity..

> but we do not specifically target them

Hundreds of videoes proves otherwise. Where fleeing civilians are gunned down.

> Personally, as a commander, I would like to say that I have no ill feelings towards the Palestinian people

But your leaders have. And your peers, judging by videoes they posts about the cruelty they do.

> but we need to get as many of the hostages back as possible

You say that, but then you bomb every structure you find, and even shoot the fleeing hostages yourself. It doesn't really seem you care too much for them, they're merely a convenient excuse to do your horrors.

> Please support us and help rid the world of violent terrorism

You can start by laying down your weapon. What you're doing to Palestinian civilians is terrorism.

YeGoblynQueenne  1 year ago

>> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them.

I struggle to believe this is really a comment by a "commander in the IDF". Such a person should know that the use of civilians as human shields by one side does not absolve the other side from taking every precaution to minimise harm coming to those civilians.

Risk to civilians does not bar military action, but the principle of proportionality requires that precautions be taken to minimize the harm to these protected persons. This analysis includes considerations like whether circumstances permit the attacker to time a military action to minimize the presence of civilians at the location.[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_shield_(law)#Legal_doctr...

Specifically, saying the IDF doesn't target them, they're just in the way, is a cynical denial of that responsibility.

Further, a commander of the IDF would remember the proverb about throwing stones when living in a glass house: there is extensive documentation of the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields by the IDF. See for example the Goldstone Report on Operation Cast Lead (2009):

  10. The use of Palestinian civilians as human shields

  55. The Mission investigated four incidents in which Israeli forces coerced Palestinian civilian
  men at gun point to take part in house searches during the military operations (Chapter XIV).
  The Palestinian men were blindfolded and handcuffed as they were forced to enter houses ahead
  of the Israeli soldiers. In one of the incidents, Israeli forces repeatedly forced a man to enter a
  house in which Palestinian combatants were hiding. Published testimonies of Israeli soldiers who
  took part in the military operations confirm the continued use of this practice, in spite of clear
  orders from Israel’s High Court to the armed forces to put an end to it and repeated public
  assurances from the armed forces that the practice had been discontinued. The Mission
  concludes that this practice amounts to the use of Palestinian civilians as human shields and is
  therefore prohibited by international humanitarian law.

https://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/20... (page 19 of the pdf).

Despite Israel's claims Hamas does not use civilians in this way. Instead they fight from built-up areas and make it difficult to distinguish combatant from non-combatant. They "hide among civilians" but they don't "use them as shields".

hnu234  1 year ago

[flagged]

  • dang  1 year ago

    We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments (not just in this thread but in many others). That's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

    It's especially in violation of the intended spirit that I tried to explain at the top of the current thread.

    Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

rsoto2  1 year ago

[flagged]

  • dang  1 year ago

    You can't attack another user like this on HN, no matter how wrong they are or you feel they are.

    You may not feel you owe the other person better, but you owe this community better if you're participating it; especially given the intended spirit that I attempted to describe at the top of this thread.

    Denouncing others as monsters without humanity is what fuels this entire horror. The least we can do is not allow that on Hacker News.

    https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

    • rsoto2  1 year ago

      If killing innocent children doesn't make you a monster I don't know what does.

      I disagree, refusing to denounce atrocious acts and being "civil" and "polite" is what fuels and literally allows these horrors.

      These fucks are prancing around tiktok and ycombinator while they bomb refugee camps they deserve no peace.

      4 replies →

masom  1 year ago

> Yes there is collateral damage because Hamas uses civilians as human shields, so we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them.

> we have no choice but to kill them too, but we do not specifically target them

> we have no choice but to kill them too

bruh...

Those are war crimes according to the UN

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

  • EvgeniyZh  1 year ago

    > which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;

    You can't just put a single civilian in every military base and be protected by international law. Collateral damage isn't necessarily a war crime.

    • mkoubaa  1 year ago

      I agree, collateral damage is not a war crime... Until it is paired with a not-hidden intent to punish the population

    • masom  1 year ago

      Agreed, not saying what Hamas is doing is any good, they're also doing war crimes.

      An Hospital, Red Cross camp, and other zones are not military bases.