Comment by noduerme
2 years ago
Hah. I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day. I was going to write that but it seemed like too much to explain. As I go to bed later and later, eventually I find myself awake past sunrise, which is usually the day when I'll intentionally have a short sleep and snap back to an early bedtime that night.
Kids would definitely screw up this aspect of my lifestyle lol. But kids give you immortality, and here I am just wondering if I'm gaining or losing a couple years.
Just as a secondary data point. Without medication I have about a 32:12 hour cycle. Up for at least 30 hours and sleeping for about 12. I can function on 5 but I'm grumpy about it for a while. Always been that way. Completely inverted as well. Up all night and my body tries to convince me to sleep during the day but I'm just not able to for another twelve hours.
I got fired from several jobs because of it. My folks weren't understanding so I genuinely believed that I was willingly staying up and well... Needless to say I have no professional network and most of my friends thought I was a massive flake and those connections fell apart, too. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Even diagnosed with insomnia I still feel massive guilt about not being able to sleep like a normal person. I just ruin everyone's plans around me. If I need to be up I have to hope my medication works (when employed) and if it does I need an hour to wake up enough to feel safe doing anything major like cooking or driving.
Sorry for the ramble. Appropriately I've been up for like 34 hours and am hoping these OTC meds kick in.
Hope y'all have a great weekend.
Hey, I feel that. Lots of people think I'm a flake. And I use the word "inverted" frequently to describe my state to my friends/girlfriend/clients when it gets too far outside social norms ;)
Just a piece of unsolicited advice: I learned to make a virtue out of it. I'm a solo software dev and I have to maintain big pieces of code that run 24/7. Well, my virtue is that I've been available 24/7 to my clients for the last 20 years. And one of the results of that has been that they've never abandoned me and gone to larger companies to deal with software issues. My own schedule is so variable, it doesn't really matter if I'm asleep or awake or what time zone they're in; if it's not urgent, it goes into my inbox, but if it's urgent, I usually answer the phone immediately. Part of this has been adding layers of support forms so I don't have to wake up to every phone call. But the people who have my cell number get through right away.
The result of that is that I basically get paid $300 every time I have to wake up, which is soul-soothing enough to prevent me from being angry. And the rest of the time I can sleep whenever I feel like it.
Being on a 32:12 hour cycle could have massive rewards. Clients are extremely appreciative, especially if you break your sleep for something important. Like, don't be afraid to tell your clients about your sleep cycle. Getting through admitting that was probably the biggest breakthrough of my career. My girlfriend loves that I'm still up working and make her breakfast at 4am when she's headed for work some days, or make her dinner when she comes home at night others. It's always a surprise, I tell her. You just have to find people who appreciate the energy you bring.
Yes, the "straight world" of people with 9-5 jobs and kids absolutely abhors this lifestyle and thinks it's irresponsible and flakey. But then again, they don't get paid $300 for waking up in the middle of the day ;) My friends (and girlfriends) are lyft drivers, waiters, coders, night shift workers, and other people who spurn daylight society. We are legion.
I appreciate it. The issue I have is that while clients love being able to get a hold of me out at all hours my employer fires me for being five minutes late.
I use the term inverted to describe my circadian rhythm but people who don't see me physically suffer from being awake for days don't get it. My folks think I'm making it up and my friends get it but also don't.
For a bit of alternate perspective, I had a happy life until a night shift worker moved in next to me, and began setting off alarms, cooking and leaving at variable times while experimenting with their sleep. They explained how they could sleep through everything. Completely oblivious to why the building wanted them to leave(I'm not saying this is the same for you).
Maybe that is what this study is capturing.
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Have you tried magnesium l-threonate, sub-milligram melatonin, or CBN? The first two have been very effective for me and the latter seems promising, but I don’t have that much trouble getting to sleep so I’m curious if they’re effective for someone with real difficulties.
I take 1mg melatonin and at no less than 50mg doxy succinate a night to try to sleep. Maybe a few days every few weeks it just won't work so I'm stuck being awake for hours while feeling super tired and groggy and then I'll be awake again the next night like I got a full night's sleep.
I have no idea what CBN is. Not intentionally tried the magnesium but I can keep an eye out. I'm between jobs so I can't really afford to get up and buy things too often but I'll add it to my list to look for.
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I relate so much. I'm on some heavy hitting medication to manage it which no doubt will have their own consequences for me. Feels like there's no winning.
Yes, what are the "heavy hitting meds" for sleep, please?
Just curious what meds you take for this.
Prescribed or OTC?
Experiments where people aren't told what time it is end up with them gravitating towards a 25-26 hour day. So you're totally normal.
Wikipedia [0] criticises these experiments and says they didn't account for electric light, which apparently lengthens the cycle. So to rephrase, people with any access whatsoever to electric light favour a 25-26 hour day. You're still totally normal, but it explains you may have better outcomes with annoying interventions like "no artificial light in the last few hours of the evening".
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
I actually experimented with that. I allowed myself two candles, which I found was enough to read by and plenty for navigating my house.
Soon, all night time electric lighting seemed batshit crazy. Dozens of times too bright. Of course we all can’t fucking sleep. It’s so wildly much brighter than necessary.
I gave it up after a few weeks because it’s pretty much impossible to keep up if you’re ever around other people in the evening (and I have a family, so…) and they’re not entirely on-board, or just need to get stuff done at night because life is busy (again: I have a family) and everything about modern scheduling and activities assumes you can do things for hours after sun-down.
But, the experience did convince me that 95% of “night owls” and serious trouble sleeping are just the obvious and natural consequence of crazy-bright nighttime lighting and hyper-stimulating electronic home entertainment (which all also emits light, so I was shunning that stuff after dark too during my experiment). We have a sleeplessness epidemic? Gee I wonder if it’s because we light up our houses like a carnival and then put a world’s fair x100 at our finger tips. Like, yes, of course it’s that.
I’ve since discovered that low-dose weed gummies also get the job done with no side effects (aside from allowing me an hour or so of giggly TV watching right before bed, if I want it—oh no, what a tragedy), for me, and are far more compatible with modern life. Kinda lame to have to medicate my way out of the human body and mind of course not being able to cope with what we all do to them after dark, through.
I’ve used the analogy on here before, but imagine some 18th century emperor or king complained to his physician that he’d been lighting up his palace and grounds every night as bright possible and hosting a weeks-long 24/7 festival featuring the world’s finest entertainers (including the rather lewd sorts), intellectuals, travelers and philosophers, jesters and players, and, well, for some reason he’s having trouble falling asleep at a decent hour. LOL fucking yeah, dude, no wonder.
But we do that and then go “man I wonder if maybe I need a better pillow or to get more vitamin D” or whatever. Seriously?
Weed gummies used to work like a charm for me, up until my late 30s, but in the past few years even the low-THC ones leave me extremely groggy the next day. Although I get a great sleep, it isn't worth it anymore for how long it takes me to come back to full function. I keep them around for emergencies when I need to go to sleep.
I keep my lights very low in the hours before I go to bed, and use candles, and mostly read books rather than electronic devices. But one thing I'd point out is that - I live fairly far north. At this time of the year, there is very little direct sunlight at all. Whole days can be as dark as 6am, and the sun will be setting before 5pm soon. There is a balance, in the winter, when without bright electric light you could never really wake up. And sometimes it feels like living on a space station, because if you're a night owl that's the only light you get. I've had modestly good results from using a "happy lamp" during the darkest days. Just pointing out that - although I agree with you about clamping down on carnival lights at night - there is an opposite extreme which can cause people to go into a sort of seasonal hibernation.
Many years ago, at college, I stayed in town for a summer rather than going back home or elsewhere. I had a coding job with no fixed hours (and working in a windowless basement), and no friends in town. So I tried the “sleep when I want” experiment. IIRC I settled into about a 26-hour cycle.
I used to do this as well sort of, my schedule would shift by a few hours every day. I found that it had a significant impact on my mental health when I was sleeping through the day though, and it made it difficult to participate in various aspects of society like work, education and in person social things. I was eventually able to “fix” it by taking melatonin as a supplement to fix a short term schedule and being super anal about not letting people pressure me into playing games late or staying out late. I basically reframed sleeping hygiene as a primary health concern and that worked for me.
Anyway if your schedule doesn’t impact you in a negative way then go for it
> I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day
To be fair, we're all like this. The average length of Circadian Cycle is closer to 25h than 24h when isolated: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.ph...
I was all ready to agree because I always feel I want >24h, but that link is actually correcting earlier studies finding 25h to say no it is more like 24h on average (once isolated from screens)?