Comment by CursedSilicon
8 days ago
I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely want them, or respect them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy.
ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen
Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
*But* they're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back
> enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back
Alas, T / R, the ratio of total thinkpad distance T to our lunar round trip distance R, is at most about 0.11 .
This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year * mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) * (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order for a lunar round trip.
It won't get you to the moon, but you can squeeze out a little more distance by arranging them corner to corner.
We must either increase the production rate of T480-size thinkpads by around 9x or get Lenovo to release at least one special edition extreme widescreen thinkpad specialised for lunar round trips
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Corner to corner with their hinge opened to 180°
Exactly. We can also win a tiny bit of the distance by assuming the Moon in the perigee, where the distance to the Moon is about 363000 km. I also assume that these distances are measured between the centers, so we can perhaps subtract twice the Earth radius (about 2*6400 km).
Call that tip to tip efficiency ;)
* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmwYxLaaQ5s (reference - which really fits this whole thread)
Comment on the comments.....it sure looks like moores law is loosing relevance and that going forward the possibility for durable, stable, device implemtations, that can last for generations is inevitable. Manufacturers may be resistant, but with 8~9 billion customers, and the inevitable losses and damage to devices, it will take a generation to get one in everybodys hands
Video editing and animation already require modern kit. And AI is adding significant processing requirements. We are not off the treadmill yet.
I say this as somebody the regularly uses laptops as old as 2009 (like, I will spend most of today on one). A lot of real-world, everyday computing barely taxes modern hardware on a decent OS like Linux. Old hardware will let you do a lot more than people think.
Yeah, my needs are simplistic enough (light coding, 2D drawing, programmatic 3D modeling using OpenPythonSCAD) that I'm seriously considering switching to an rPi 5 paired w/ a Wacom Movink 13 and a second display and a battery pack as my main computer.
Almost terrifying that the two length scales are only an order of magnitude apart…
opening the thinkpads will add ~ 38% to the effective area of stacking thinkpads, if edge-to-edge (0.2325m depth closed, assuming doubling for opened = 0.465m opened) [0].
if opened and touching corner-to-corner (~0.574m), will add ~ 71% to effective area.
[0] https://www.lenovo.com/content/dam/lenovo/pcsd/north-america...
Well not the moon, but about 100 times back and forth to ISS Average distance of ISS 370-460km, let's take 415km, back and forth so 2x 415km= 830km 84 150km/830=~101
brilliant comment. dont forget theres also thinkpads like that W700ds that had secondary displays that extended out from the side haha
W700ds is such an oddity. I love it. One day in high school, my dad asked "what's the difference between RAID 1 and RAID 0?", which led to me sitting down next to him to spec this monster laptop out. A week later he purchased it.
At ~10.9 lbs + 2.2 lbs for the charger, it was not terribly practical to travel with, so it ended up effectively as a desktop in the office.
It now sits in my closet, and periodically I turn it on. The dual screen was a bit too small to do much with, but it was great for notepad or a chat window. Being a 32 bit system limited to 4 GB of RAM, it's not terribly useful today.
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Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major issue for me. It’s difficult to justify for the price, plus PCBs and repeated flex stress don’t mix nicely.
I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.
They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with them.
Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.
As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint).
[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
Every time I see any of those MNT machines in pictures, it makes my fingers start frantically typing out lengthy rants whether it's about internals or externals or even choices of colors.
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If it were at least 14" instead of 12.5".
Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
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MNT reforms get more and more appealing by the day as I’ve become increasingly disillusioned by the state of current hardware offerings.
I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13. The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel.
I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).
Interestingly the Macbook trackpad does not have physical buttons. It uses haptic feedback to simulate the feeling of a "click", but in reality there is no button which could be interrupted by dust.
I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation.
On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
MacBooks haven’t had mechanical trackpads in over a decade now — they’re solid glass with really good haptics to make it feel like they move, so I doubt what you’re experiencing with yours is a mechanical jam. It’s more likely that the haptic motor is malfunctioning occasionally or there’s something that’s causing the process in charge of haptics to stall.
My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all.
The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium.
So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.
I suspect you could get a local machinist to make you a metal base, then find mechanical key switches and the other parts and thus make a new replacement keyboard to your specs. Keyboards are not very complex so some effort can get you a new one to fit.
My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably durable config.
Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
> My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot
Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
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I was sad when I bought a new 10th or 11th gen X1 carbon to replace my 4th gen. I configured them essentially the same, second-to-fastest processor, FHD display, no touch screen.
The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
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Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since their initial post.
As a 13 owner (only thinkpad 13, nobody talks about it but I think is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever owned) this would be fantastic. I would love to have my 13 for life. I don't know if my 13 is able to be upgraded like a desktop PC like other thinkpads, but adding a carbon fiber chassis would be like fresh air.
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imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature. charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop killers, so making that modular is a huge step up
The modular ports are just USB-C in a cutaway. You can plug your charger into the USB-C port, or into a USB-C module that plugs into the USB-C port. Totally underwhelming. (I had a Framework 16 as a work machine at a previous job.) I definitely still make use of USB-A, and I will for some time - but only when I'm at home plugging in my keyboard and mouse, so I could be perfectly happy with a USB-C hub like I use with my current laptop. I want a durable computer which I can upgrade the RAM, motherboard, storage, replace the battery, screen etc over the next seventeen years so that I don't know when one computer begins and the next ends. I don't want impractical USB-C ports that I have to pay extra for and which limit the durability of the system. To be clear: I've never had a laptop whose charging port died, but if it was something I'd rate as likely, I'd would much rather have a good system and replace the bottom cover kit, rather than a compromised system and replace a protective plug.
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Modular ports are good, but I’m not sure I need to be able to hot swap them.
Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.
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or even just keeping the ports on a separate PCB would be a help so you dont have to replace the whole motherboard when the usb port breaks
i bought maybe 5 differnet thinkpads over the years and never had an issue with the old charging port. with the last usb-c thinkpad i got i had to buy 2 new chargers and both of those i repaired a few times as well. the connector just wiggles around too much and the cables are also too rigid so when it gets snagged on something the connector ends up bending in the port before the cable bends.
in the end i just got rid of it before the actual port on the motherboard got completely damaged
Not really these days, most laptops have 2-4 usb c ports that you can change through so you have redundancy if one fails
Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you pick the laptop up.
At least the M1~2 series Macbooks scratched the screen with the keyboard. Mines did, and asking second hand resailers it was a very common issue.
Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
FWIW, I’ve been toting around the 16” M-series models since they launched and recently picked up a 13” Air and have yet to see this occur. Haven’t heard reports of it from coworkers or friends either. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I suspect there’s a particular action or pattern of behavior that makes it more likely, such as placing it under heavy objects or packing it in tightly with books or something like that.
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I've been looking for a replacement laptop and this issue is making me look away from any future Macbooks.
Does anyone have experience if the issue been resolved in more recent designs, or is this something Apple users are now expected to live with?
Using a thin microfibre cloth between keyboard and screen prevents this.
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Yeah, the price is the only thing that holds me back from trying a Framework 13.
I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately. If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do.
But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost anytime soon.
*Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more money selling you both separately.
You hit on why I got my first used ThinkPad many years ago (a T42): it was so cheap as to be disposable. I was going on a trip that promised to be somewhat...ah...rough on my kit, and I picked up the T42 for dirt so I didn't take my new, very expensive laptop only to have it trashed (I don't remember what it was now...probably some Dell). The Dell(?) is loooong gone. The T42 made it through the trip fine, and over many years has gotten an SSD, a memory upgrade and a new screen (old one worked fine; wanted the pretty SXGA screen) and because it has a real, honest to gawd parallel port, it's still serving duty today controlling some stuff in my lab (PROM programmer, some finicky windows software, etc). It might not be a daily driver, but it gets fired up most every week to do real work.
FYI- you can find 32GB DDR4 SODIMMs that’ll work with the x260 :D
My new company of about 100 persons uses ThinkPads as their 'standard issue' laptops. Which I guess is great. I have a T480 privately. But modern ThinkPads are not as great as before, and I was just thinking about if the Framework might make a nice 'standard issue' laptop for the company. I guess it might be just fine!
When would you define as “before”? I’ve had a thinkpad on and off and I’d describe the quality as consistent.
People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.
I have a T420. A few years ago I switched to a slightly used T480, keyboard was a huge downgrade and the whole series can get really stupid USBC issues. After half a year or so it didn't dock anymore and I got an X1, basically the same laptop glad I found it without touch and the 'bright screen' because the screen is barely good enough, keyboard is the same and USBc already started to get finicky.
Meanwhile my T420 still runs like on day one (which was already 5 years old when I got it, and travelled 1+ years with me in a backpack), the screen works in direct sunlight and it's not even the best of its series, hardware still perfect. Fat SSD + 32GB Ram and you can barely tell how old it is.
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I've used Thinkpads consistently for 25-30 years, and still do. I can't really draw a line between "before" and "after" but if I take a long enough period I can definitely see differences in the experience getting watered down or generally worse, from less flexibility to lower reliability.
I still have and regularly use a fully functional X200, somewhere in the box I have a fully functional T42 and an R31 whose only defect is a small screen blemish caused by me closing the lid with something on the keyboard.
But my multiple X1 Gen1 and Gen2 all have various failures (screen, battery, webcam, or keyboard), my T450 has big battery issues, my T470s have screen/GPU and battery issues. T490 is fine for now, X1 Gen11 has crappy battery and is overheating from the get go. These are different generations, different lots and still affected by the same constant issues.
I definitely know that people have complained that modern ThinkPads are not as good as before, and they have been doing that for ages, just as Socrates back in the day already was complaining about modern kids and their behaviours ;-)
In this case I was referring to post-T480 ThinkPads which have soldered memory, and no longer have hot-swappable batteries or on-board Ethernet.
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My first ThinkPad had terrible battery life. It was a X1 Extreme or something like that, pretty high end but the battery was useless. Even brand new it wouldn't last an hour off leash. Also couldn't use usb-c charging from the monitors at the office, had to be plugged in.
Also the Fn key is where the Ctrl key should be, which is endlessly annoying as a user of different laptop brands.
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Not sure what GP means but I gather the x230 era (2012?) has a cult following. I picked one up a few years ago when a laptop died and I didn't have the cash for something new: it is still my daily driver and I'm not replacing it til it dies.
By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the change happened
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We had an expensive IBM ThinkPad model (too long ago to remember what model it was) and the keyboard and several other parts were worn down in three years of mostly in-home use. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
At least a lot of modern ThinkPads are still modular. Recently got a 5th gen T14 AMD. Memory, NVMe SSD, WWAN modem, battery, and a bunch of other components are really easy to replace. I think I prefer the keyboard over my MBP, it feels less harsh.
I enjoy my Framework 13 laptop; it’s great having a laptop that is user-serviceable and upgradable, and I’m keeping my eyes out on the upcoming Framework convertible laptop as a potential replacement for my aging Microsoft Surface Pro 7.
With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the best chiclet-style keyboards I’ve ever used. I also like the keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a dream, though, would be if there’s some way to fit a mechanical keyboard into a laptop.
>With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better.
Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice.
(Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant.
https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes...
Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )
Great article, thanks for the link!
I did not expect this criticism ! I, and many others apparently, enjoy the keyboard a lot. My main criticism would be that even though it's acceptable, the chassis does not feel rugged.
Agreed particularly with respect to the top cover (though it has improved).
Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It sounds like it’s targeted as the school/chromebook market, but as an adult I’m also interested. I’m hoping when the pre-orders go up next week it’s priced in a way that makes it an impulse buy. I really don’t need it, but I want to support the company and their mission.
As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention
I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
Probably worried about tariffs. Now they know.
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I also saw no mention about the weight. Did you? Matters to me a lot for a 12".
Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet.
I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash.
I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them:
Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a performance comparison.
So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.
There's some mis-information here:
Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I replaced 2 in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and presumably recycled since it was not repairable.
Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.
They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.
On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly connected to the GPU.
My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to disable them).
2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.
I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a touchscreen.
On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port
I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with my Framework 13 though.
I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should have bought it from the company when I left but bought a black Macbook instead
That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.
https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=F...
https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card
> - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card >That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.
Also, unless something has changed or I am misinterpreting what they are saying, the fw13 does have an audio output that is not an expansion card.
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> - Fingerprint reader
My mistake.
> That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards.
> - SD card slot
Like I said. The laptop itself is very basic (crippleware by Lenovo standards). You have to use USB ports for everything, there are only 3 usable, and also mechanically very weak, not to mention performance, heat inside a closed plastic case, cost, etc.
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> FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane.
> X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60 batteries on the train.
Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not only robust but also way faster and more capable.
There is Thinkpad T25 25th anniversary edition[1]. It has "modern" spec, while still having that traditional keyboard of t420
Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3 AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...
I currently have this T25. But it’s mostly a gimmick. Once the coolness wore off it’s just a midrange T470 under the hood.
Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
You can combine it with a top-line T480 if you want! https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
> But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need Win 11, there are workarounds)
Keyboard is a bit nicer, but that's probably about it.
Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't on my x13 :-(
Until you're able to somehow transplant a T420 keyboard into a Framework, I'm staying on my ThinkPad either until it dies, or the heat death of the universe. whichever comes first ;-)
Similar situation here, with W520. My fantasy for Framework 16 is to have extended hinges and thick bezel available that would lift the screen further from the keyboard deck, and of course an upgraded keyboard available with longer travel and contoured keys (and better arrow key layout).
Are you listening, Nirav?
(Yes, I know it would make the laptop slightly thicker and heavier. But I just said I'm using a W520, and happy with it...)
The arrow key layout makes Framework a non-starter for me. Full height L and R keys sucked shit on the touchbar MacBook Pros so bad that even Apple acquiesced to common sense and went back to the inverted T.
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Right. Fantastic keyboards. Nothing comes close in recent laptops.
Older ThinkPad (pre-2008) snob checking in. The only recent laptops with decent keyboards (that I have found) are from MNT Research.
https://mntre.com/
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isn't the x1 carbon keyboard basically the same?
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Not all, but a lot of ThinkPad fans enjoy the track point. No laptop without a track point can be considered a viable alternative for me :-/
And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and family laptops.
As someone who once loved the track point on my old IBM ThinkPad, I've found that for some reason every track point not made by IBM sucks. Even the modern Lenovo ones are terrible, and I have no idea why.
Interesting; I do find sometimes I need to go into the app and adjust the acceleration/sensitivity/speed to my liking, but even up to my current work Yoga (12th gen Intel), I used them preferentially to trackpad when on the move (ergonomic mouse when stationary). I have struggled more with Dells and HPs, but can usually get it "close enough"
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I'm unsure how a second hand market for Frameworks would even make sense, given that the whole premise is that they're highly repairable and upgradable. If everyone just replaces pieces one at a time then there can be no market for used whole laptops, and if people did start regularly selling off their used Frameworks then that would suggest that they're failing at their main value proposition.
I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards and other parts.
Both framework and fairphone have secondary community markets, and it makes sense. You upgrade and resell your old part. Used whole laptops also make sense if one's requirements change. i.e. going from a 13 to a 16 or a 12.
https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202
https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51
In my mind there's also a pretty big overlap in MacBook and ThinkPad users. For me personal that is the choice I'm faced with, when picking a new laptop. Do I get a new MacBook, or do I get a ThinkPad running Linux. I don't think I'm unique in this way.
Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier option.
Framework is approaching the point where there is now a choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of the price.
I love my Framework AMD 13. Coming from an old Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 3 I got used after a few years. Excellent form factor and oh so repairable. I’ve been very satisfied with the purchase.
I’m really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop repairability. And hell, even if they don’t, hopefully they’ll be around so I can continue to be a customer.
IBM-era ThinkPads were great, but Lenovo has been progressively diluting the brand, trying to copy Apple, and releasing way too many models to be able to pay attention to detail. Still, they are often the best x86 machines, but competition from Framework is more than welcome.
Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware. Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality utilitarian computers.
Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with keyboards please. The original was fine.
I love my x2100. It is the machine I keep coming back to, and find more reliable and enjoyable than any other I've owned (including ones that outperform it on linux, like my oled ryzen-based t14s).
I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years - whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10 hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat.
For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit enthusiasts.
[0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]: https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
When Frameworks first came out, there was doubt that they couldn't last a year.
Or launch multiple lines.
Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only helps it become an option enough and signal to other manufacturers to consider similar ways.
The second hand market is so good for Thinkpads because there were so many of them bought by businesses.
Framework isn't the top choice for business.
There are plenty of well heeled techies who will pay premium for a modern machine with durability and repairability of the ThinkPads of the old.
I think durability on old Thinkpads is way underrated as a reason people love them.
Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the job if I tried.
Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making laptops today?
As someone who started it's career in a thinkpad only shop
Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens)
And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and very detailed.
Part of the Thinkpad sales pitch of old was literally to throw the Thinkpad on the floor and step on it, pick it up and continue the presentation. Or, as I mentioned elsewhere, to grab it by the display end and pretend to use it to fan a fire.
> Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing an entire device which people do not do because it needs repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you have to consider the price of upgrading all available components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new device.
Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace.
I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by having LTT name behind it.
> Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop.
That’s not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and machines.
a 7640 mainboard is $380 (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory, ssd, or expansion bays) is $750 (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configurat...)
Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare chassis is $1,230.
Look:
Ryzen 7840U replacement Framework mainboard £699 (currently discounted): https://frame.work/gb/en/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-s...
Thinkbook 14" Gen 7, 7735HS/16G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
Ideapad Slim 3 Gen 10 14", 8840HS/24G/512G £730 - https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
7840U and 8840HS are essentially the same CPU and the difference in performance between 7840U and 7735HS is minimal, few % at best. So these three are comparable. I'm sorry but for the price of a replacement mainboard I can buy a brand new whole laptop with memory, storage, screen, the everything that comes with it. Am I the only one who just doesn't get the hype behind a repairable laptop?
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> I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop.
I haven't been able to confirm this (I found laptop prices running at about twice the cost of the mainboard), but I wonder if you're comparing an EOL runout model from a place that can afford heavy discounts against a standard price from a smaller company. If you just need a laptop and you're not too fussy, that's definitely a fair choice. But if you're buying a laptop for ten years, you probably aren't going to settle for the unsold 16GB 512GB.
> Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design.
I guess a Framework isn't for someone who wants a same spec Asus, Lenovo or Dell.
> Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen.
This is 173% fud. If it happens, it's because Framework is dead and there's some different company that bought their branding and just wants to use it for market segmentation. I definitely have to rate the chances that Framework has died as one of the risks of buying them, whereas I wouldn't concern myself with the risk of System76 dying, because a typical laptop lasts well past its warranty, but the point of Framework is indeed what happens in that post-warranty period.
I'm not a huge fan of Frameworks. I left a critical review on another comment. I'm not sure at all if they fit my needs, and having recently discovered the wonder of tailscale I'm now debating if my next computer will be a Framework vs a headless desktop + a dumb laptop. So even if a Framework doesn't fit my needs, they're still the only laptop that seems to. But your criticisms don't at all seem grounded enough.
This is 173% fud. If it happens, it's because Framework is dead
Take a look at the Framework desktop, it comes with soldered on RAM. Not because of any active decisions made by Framework, but simply because that's how that CPU ships. It literally didn't support RAM slots. I can only see this trend continuing. I don't doubt that Framework will be the last hold out in the fight against soldered on RAM and SSDs, but sooner or later if they want to keep shipping the latest CPUs, they probably won't have too much of a choice in the matter.
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> the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace.
This is sarcasm, I hope, right? The two most consumable items in the laptop (specially for OLED screens), and you're suggesting users have no need to replace them?
Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The two things I never had to replace since I got my first laptop in the late 90s, not do I know anyone who had to replace those.
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>Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
They are also bulky and battery life is not great.
To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite expensive.
I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a new one.
I don't know about other non-mac laptops. I agree the battery life isn't anything to write home about, but it's better than my corporate windows laptop. I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes.
But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized. Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to my windows laptop.
> I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes.
Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid when I was done for the day, because that's what you do with macs.
In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active cooling?
Dells age really horribly though. Unlike ThinkPads (especially the IBM and early Lenovo days)
I used to love my T490s even. It was a really recent model but still not bad for me.
But now my work gave me a T14s and it's horrible. The keys have way less travel. The body is thinner but the screen is way thicker than the T490s's. I don't know what they're smoking but ThinkPads are dead as decent laptops.
And nobody is making (classic) ThinkPad-style keyboards for the Framework laptops (yet? — I'm not sure they have enough "headroom").
Every time i see the framework people at a conference i insist that they have to target the thinkpad users and not just the macbook people.
Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize making it happen.
At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.
Even MacBook users are used to something quite more rugged
>ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen
That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
> But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
Not in meaningful numbers.
I’m not sure they’re there yet. I bought a FW13 as I love the ideology, but it felt cheap next to the MBP/A, for not a lot less cash. When it arrived with a failed backlight (which admittedly they immediately offered to dispatch a replacement part), it went back instead.
Framework laptops aren't really repairable in the same way that old Thinkpads are. Maybe that's good, maybe not, but replacing an entire motherboard every 3 years isn't all that different from replacing an entire computer really.
To add a data point here, my Framework laptop is 3 years old and I have no plans to change the mainboard anytime soon.
Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU + memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer. Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you wish to.
This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire computer.
Wait, are you saying they don't offer the full HMMs and FRU list like IBM/Lenovo did/does for ThinkPads?????
IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals, were written so that if all steps in the document were performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit.
Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but why...
0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/...
1: https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf
Field repair by enterprise IT support was also part of Lenovo's business model. For framework repairability is a thing but it's not as important I guess.
I had an HP that also had service manuals available.
Ps Lenovo basically has two brands; the business laptops like the T, P and X ThinkPads, and the consumer stuff including some of the budget ThinkPads (I think E series). The latter don't do service manuals, have really crappy keyboards.. Just B-brand crap. They're just a consumer laptop with some thinkpad trim. Be careful with that if you think of buying one.
In what way can you repair and old Thinkpad that you can't repair a framework?
> 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.
Any idea how reliable those motherboards are ?
My only objection to the 51nb FrankenPads is that to the best of my knowledge, they take out the ExpressPort. As a bit of a data-hoarder, I use my ExpressPort for an M2 drive, and don't particularly want to give that up.
The T480 motherboard they use as a base for the conversion does have NVMe support, just a weird one that's integrated in the SATA bay. There was a name for it, but I forget. Some kind of transitionary standard.
But you can get a converter for that. It did have half the PCIe channels of a regular M2 slot I think. It's been a while since I had one in my hands.
The T480 didn't come with an ExpressCard IIRC hence the lack of it.
You need an adapter like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo
If Framework had used a ComExpress type 6 module in their laptops they would have had an upgradable processor.
I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.
I just can’t with the thinkpad’s keyboard layout. The left function being swapped with the ctrl key is a nonstarter for me - you can’t just put keys in the wrong place.
You can swap them in the bios/firmware.
I really hope they get there though. The idea of a modern, repairable, modular laptop that doesn't lock you into a walled garden is incredibly appealing
Obligatory "I can't even order Framework in my country" post.
But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.
Same here - can also buy 2 or 3 T480s for the price of a new framework even if they did deliver :D
> Framework laptops are wonderful
No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.
I am not sure what is so fascinating about Framework laptops. They are pretty expensive and are, in fact, one more Chinese OEM production - they are produced by Taiwanese Compal Electronics, which has factory in Kunshan (China).
It is hard to build a legend around something like this.
MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.
We manufacture in Taiwan, not China, and the design is ours, not Compal’s.