My vote is for Elixir as well, but it's not a competitor for multiple important reasons. There are some languages in that niche, although too small and immature, like Crystal, Nim. Still waiting for something better.
yeah, if the requirement is "makes it pretty straightforward to write reliable, highly concurrent services that don't rely on heavy multithreading", Elixir is a perfect match.
And even without types (which are coming and are looking good), Elixir's pattern matching is a thousands times better than the horror of Go error handling
In my opinion they need to invest a lot more time and money into it for that.
The development experience on VSCode was pretty bad (I think the LSP has a memory leak), and some important (for me) libraries aren't tuned very well yet (a Vapor webserver can sit around 100 MiB memory, whereas putting a bunch of load on the grpc implementation balloons the memory usage to >1 GiB).
I haven't followed swift too closely, but ref counting is not a good fit for typical server applications. Sure, value types and such take off a lot of load from the GC (yes, ref counting is a GC), but still, tracing GCs have much better performance on server workloads. (Reference counting when an object is shared between multiple cores require atomic increments/decrements and that is very expensive).
The only silver bullet we know of is building on existing libraries. These are also non-accidentally the top 3 most popular languages according to any ranking worthy of consideration.
First, we allow main methods to omit the infamous boilerplate of public static void main(String[] args), which simplifies the Hello, World! program to:
class HelloWorld {
void main() {
System.out.println("Hello, World!");
}
}
Second, we introduce a compact form of source file that lets developers get straight to the code, without a superfluous class declaration:
Third, we add a new class in the java.lang package that provides basic line-oriented I/O methods for beginners, thereby replacing the mysterious System.out.println with a simpler form:
Always find 'java is verbose' to be a novice argument from go coders when there is so much boilerplate on the go side of things that's nicely handled on the java side.
Every function call is 3-5 lines in Go. For any problem which needs to handle errors, the Go code is generally >2x the Java LOC. Go is a language that especially suffers from the "code padding" problem.
It's rich to complain about verbosity coming from Go.
Nonetheless, Java has eased the psvm requirements, you don't even have to explicitly declare a class and a void main method is enough. [1] Not that it would matter for any non-script code.
An expert Ruby programmer can do wonders and be insanely productive, but I think there is a size from which it doesn't scale as nicely (both from a performance and a larger team perspective).
PHP's frameworks are fantastic and they hide a lot from an otherwise minefield of a language (though steadily improved over the years).
Both are decent choices if this is what you/your developers know.
Absolutely no on Java. Even if the core language has seen improvements over the years, choosing Java almost certainly means that your team will be tied to using proprietary / enterprise tools (IntelliJ) because every time you work at a Java/C# shop, local environments are tied to IDE configurations. Not to mention Spring -- now every code review will render "Large diffs are not rendered by default." in Github because a simple module in Java must be a new class at least >500 LOC long.
Local environments are not tied to IDEs at all, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't use a decent IDE irrespective of language - they are a huge productivity boost.
And are you stuck in the XML times or what? Spring Boot is insanely productive - just as a fact of matter, Go is significantly more verbose than Java, with all the unnecessary if errs.
Elixir, with types
I love Elixir but you cannot compile it into a single binary, it is massively concurrent but single-threaded slow, and deployment is still nontrivial.
And lists are slower than arrays, even if they provide functional guarantees (everything is a tradeoff…)
That said, pretty much everything else about it is amazing though IMHO and it has unique features you won’t find almost anywhere else
That doesn’t exist yet. Also Elixir is in no way a replacement for Go.
It can’t match it for performance. There’s no mutable array, almost everything is a linked list, and message passing is the only way to share data.
I primarily use Elixir in my day job, but I just had to write high performance tool for data migration and I used Go for that.
My vote is for Elixir as well, but it's not a competitor for multiple important reasons. There are some languages in that niche, although too small and immature, like Crystal, Nim. Still waiting for something better.
P.S. Swift, anyone?
Last I checked Crystal’s compile time was too slow for me to deal with for anything beyond toy projects.
Swift on Linux has been a fairly horrible experience, but the language looks promising.
yeah, if the requirement is "makes it pretty straightforward to write reliable, highly concurrent services that don't rely on heavy multithreading", Elixir is a perfect match.
And even without types (which are coming and are looking good), Elixir's pattern matching is a thousands times better than the horror of Go error handling
This one i can get behind.
Clojure
Maybe weirdly I’d put swift in there.
Swift is my hope for the next big server language. Great type system, great error handling.
In my opinion they need to invest a lot more time and money into it for that. The development experience on VSCode was pretty bad (I think the LSP has a memory leak), and some important (for me) libraries aren't tuned very well yet (a Vapor webserver can sit around 100 MiB memory, whereas putting a bunch of load on the grpc implementation balloons the memory usage to >1 GiB).
I haven't followed swift too closely, but ref counting is not a good fit for typical server applications. Sure, value types and such take off a lot of load from the GC (yes, ref counting is a GC), but still, tracing GCs have much better performance on server workloads. (Reference counting when an object is shared between multiple cores require atomic increments/decrements and that is very expensive).
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For web frontend: js
For ML/data: python
For backend/general purpose software: Java
The only silver bullet we know of is building on existing libraries. These are also non-accidentally the top 3 most popular languages according to any ranking worthy of consideration.
I'd swap java with go any day of the week. I never liked how much 'code-padding' is required with java `public static void main`
For Java 25 which is planned to be released in a couple of weeks:
----- https://openjdk.org/jeps/512 -----
First, we allow main methods to omit the infamous boilerplate of public static void main(String[] args), which simplifies the Hello, World! program to:
Second, we introduce a compact form of source file that lets developers get straight to the code, without a superfluous class declaration:
Third, we add a new class in the java.lang package that provides basic line-oriented I/O methods for beginners, thereby replacing the mysterious System.out.println with a simpler form:
6 replies →
Always find 'java is verbose' to be a novice argument from go coders when there is so much boilerplate on the go side of things that's nicely handled on the java side.
Every function call is 3-5 lines in Go. For any problem which needs to handle errors, the Go code is generally >2x the Java LOC. Go is a language that especially suffers from the "code padding" problem.
It's rich to complain about verbosity coming from Go.
Nonetheless, Java has eased the psvm requirements, you don't even have to explicitly declare a class and a void main method is enough. [1] Not that it would matter for any non-script code.
[1] https://openjdk.org/jeps/495
Java, lol. Enterprise lang with too many abstractions and wrongly interpreted OOP. Absolutely not.
What about php/ruby for web?
An expert Ruby programmer can do wonders and be insanely productive, but I think there is a size from which it doesn't scale as nicely (both from a performance and a larger team perspective).
PHP's frameworks are fantastic and they hide a lot from an otherwise minefield of a language (though steadily improved over the years).
Both are decent choices if this is what you/your developers know.
But they wouldn't be my personal first choice.
Absolutely no on Java. Even if the core language has seen improvements over the years, choosing Java almost certainly means that your team will be tied to using proprietary / enterprise tools (IntelliJ) because every time you work at a Java/C# shop, local environments are tied to IDE configurations. Not to mention Spring -- now every code review will render "Large diffs are not rendered by default." in Github because a simple module in Java must be a new class at least >500 LOC long.
When did you last touch java, before 2000?
Local environments are not tied to IDEs at all, but you are doing yourself a disservice if you don't use a decent IDE irrespective of language - they are a huge productivity boost.
And are you stuck in the XML times or what? Spring Boot is insanely productive - just as a fact of matter, Go is significantly more verbose than Java, with all the unnecessary if errs.
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I know, both proprietary and enterprise, right? https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/blob/idea/20... (I would also link to the Apache 2 copy of PyCharm but it wouldn't matter to folks who just enjoy shitting on professional tools)
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