Comment by kburman
17 hours ago
My rule for modern TVs: 1. Never connect the TV panel itself to the internet. Keep it air-gapped. Treat it solely as a dumb monitor.
2. Use an Apple TV for the "smart" features.
3. Avoid Fire TV, Chromecast, or Roku.
The logic is simple, Google (Chromecast) and Amazon (Fire TV) operate on the same business model as the TV manufacturers subsidized hardware in exchange for user data and ad inventory. Apple is the only mainstream option where the hardware cost covers the experience, rather than your viewing habits subsidizing the device.
[Copied my comment from here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46268844#46271740]
That's exactly my own thought process. I don't pretend that Apple is saintly, but their profit model is currently to make money through premium prices on premium products. They have a lot to lose, like several trillion dollars, in betraying that trust.
A large % of their revenue comes from app store/services and they have incentives to lock you into the ecosystem, sell you digital shit and take a cut off of everything.
I saw an ad for apple gaming service in my iphone system settings recently !
That's not to say that Google isn't worse but let's not pretend Apple is some saint here or that their incentives are perfectly aligned with the users. Hardware growth has peaked, they will be forced to milk you on services to keep growing revenue.
Personally I'm looking forward to Steam Deck, if that gets annoying with SteamOS - it's a PC built for Linux, there's going to be something available.
True. The best option currently is to buy an Nvidia Shield TV, unlock the bootloader and install a custom Android ROM. The hardware is great, and if you install a custom ROM, you have more freedom than Apple TV will ever give you.
Ads are only 2-3% of Apple's revenue, while Google is ~75%.
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Good luck getting widevine decryption to work without a locked down OS...
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> I don't pretend that Apple is saintly, but their profit model is currently to make money through premium prices on premium products
Is this statement based on anything other than Apple marketing materials, perhaps a meaningful qualification from an independent third party? I worry this falsehood is being repeated so much it has become "truth".
For some reason, some people have this inexplicable rose-tinted vision of Apple. Until they release the source code of their products, the only rational stance is to treat their software as malware.
If further evidence is necessary, any Apple device that I have owned pings multiple Apple domains several times per minute, despite disabling every cloud dependency that can be disabled. The roles of the domains are partially documented, but traffic is encrypted and it is impossible to know for sure what information Apple is exfiltrating. It is certainly a lot more than a periodic software update check. It certainly seems that Apple is documenting how people interact with the devices they own very closely. That's an insane amount of oversight over people's lives considering that some (most?) people use their phones as their primary computer.
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Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but it certainly rhymes. Is there proof that Apple is monetizing our data with third parties? It's very clear how almost every other major company is, but Apple's been reasonably respectful about it.
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It's based on their balance of ad vs produce revenue thus far.
What falsehood? That apple's profit mix is much less advertising than its competitors is just a fact about their incentives in the moment. He didn't really go all that far in claiming anything beyond that being better than the alternative of being mostly an advertising company.
its a proprietary black box with a billion dollar marketing budget like all apple devices
Repeating "this falsehood" doesn't make it a falsehood either.
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I used to work in the industry. I know the guys responsible for real-time data capture from various platforms like Roku and Visio.
I 100% agree, and I own very nice LG TVs. They are not connected to the internet. They each have an Apple TV and that is their only way that they get video, and can't send data out.
My only * to this would be Google Chromecast devices directly if you already have them.
They have an option (buried way under settings) to make the home-screen apps only.
> Turn on Apps only mode > From the Google TV home screen, select Settings Settings and then Accounts & Sign In. > Select your profile and then Apps only mode and then Turn on.
It also makes the device significantly more performant.
Great tip! I'd been using a custom launcher, but with this, I might not have to.
Apps Only mode still has plenty of ads on the home screen though.
With a bit of fiddling, Android TV can be as good as Apple TV in terms of privacy. Not out of the box, of course, but ADB can remove advertising/surveillance related APK files from most devices sold in big box stores and there are open-source, alternative clients to YouTube and a few other platforms available due to the popularity on the underlying AOSP platform. The same is possible to varying extents on smart TVs that use Android TV as their OS.
You can even completely replace Google's sponsored-content-feed launcher/homescreen with an open source alternative that is just a grid of big tiles for your installed apps (FLauncher).
For me, SmartTube with both ad-blocking and sponsor block is the killer feature of Android TV as a platform.
If you're into local network media streaming, Jellyfin's Android TV app is also great. Their Apple TV app is limited enough that people recommend using a paid third party client instead. And that's usually inevitably the case with Apple's walled gardens... The annual developer fee means things that people would build for the community on AOSP/Android are locked behind purchases or subscriptions on iOS and Apple TV.
It never occurred to me that that's why all the macOS utilities cost money. (I mean not literally all but way more basic stuff than you'd ever think to pay for on Windows or Android). I did figure Apple encouraged it because of their massive cut off the revenue but i forgot they charge devs to publish in the first place.
MacOS isn't as locked down as iOS or Apple TV (yet) unless you publish via the Mac App Store, but a secondary factor is that Apple customers expect to pay to solve a problem without having to think about it.
The good is that the above norm encourages the creation of high quality software. The bad is that, by the same token, some ideas that would be free/libre community projects on other platforms are instead paid utilities in Apple's walled garden, especially on iOS and Apple TV.
>It never occurred to me that that's why all the macOS utilities cost money
All macOS utilities absolutely don't cost money. There are countless free macOS utilities in the Mac App Store, as well as open source utilities for macOS specifically too.
Another safe option I use: Vero V [1], it runs Debian + Kodi, so it is all open source. Great support by Sam, the founder, too.
[1] https://osmc.tv/vero/
I like the idea, but these KODI-based devices far too limited, they essentially only serve as media players for local content. For example, streaming Youtube is difficult and a poor experience relative using VacuumTube on desktop Linux. It's even harder to get a browser to work to stream from websites like Pluto and Flixer, especially if you want an adblocker. I haven't found a better option than an upscaled Linux DE on a mini-PC so far (however, see KDE Plasma Bigscreen).
Also, you can buy a more capable used ThinkCenter micro for less money, so the value proposition isn't exactly great.
> I like the idea, but these KODI-based devices far too limited, they essentially only serve as media players for local content.
This seems to be a side effect of KODI's extreme aversion to being associated with piracy.
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Why would people even buy something like a smart TV if they know it's highly likely that it's created to spy on them? It's not a necessity, so maybe just don't get a smart TV in the first place? Otherwise, how sure you are it won't search for an open Wi-Fi or that it doesn't have a cellular connection?
Because intentionally non-smart TVs are an increasingly niche, and thus expensive market, and not a categorical upgrade from simply not connecting a smart TV to the internet, while benefitting from the manufacturer subsidy from advertisers.
Why would someone buy a car with a stereo? Why would someone buy something like jeans with a zipper?
Because the stereo doesn't spy on us (hopefully). If it did, I wouldn't buy one, as it's not a necessity, either.
The zipper also doesn't spy on us... yet? When smart zippers become the norm and you can't find jeans with dumb zippers, I'll return to using buttons even if they're a bit annoying to deal with.
I believe HDMI has support for sharing internet since 1.4 and I wouldn't be surprised to see TV makers attempting to leverage this in the future to get around not connecting your TV directly to internet.
HDMI Ethernet Channel fizzled out and no devices ever supported it.
No. I had a Samsung TV which connects to the internet via the HDMI cable to my Nvidia Shield.
How well does apple TV work if you're not part of the apple ecosystem?
It works well. I have a throwaway pseudonym dedicated to my appleTV and we use the login so infrequently that we always have to look it up.
The only time we ever interface with apple is to install a new app on the AppleTV and that is very rare.
The appletv is not connected to any other apple products or services.
Thank you!
I'm not any more in the ecosystem than an Apple ID and airpods, and it is just fine. The directional spatial audio with the airpods is cool, but we also use other BT headphones with it. I use the ATV almost exclusively for Jellyfin/Infuse.
I agree with you except for the Apple TV part. I use a mini-PC running Ubuntu and use a wireless keyboard with integrated touchpad to control it, and it works wonderfully and has a much better user experience than the Chromecast I was using before - a product which has progressively become more and more shitty over the years to the point of being unusable.
An Apple TV is probably also OK, but likely also much more expensive. Also, Apple is a company that is and always has done all they could to lock down their platforms, lock in their users and seek exorbitant fees from developers releasing to their platform.
I used to use a NUC with a K400 as well (and a Logitech Harmony (RIP)), and the Apple TV is a way better experience.
The Apple TV remote is way more useable, and HDMI CEC just works™, which never ever was true with the NUC. I really like the client-server model - the Apple TV is my dumb front end for Plex, Steam Link, and so on. It also is well supported by every streaming service.
All of the Apple TV apps are designed with a UI for a TV and remote, not a user sitting two feet from a computer with a keyboard and mouse, and are way easier to use sitting on a sofa then a keyboard + browser combo.
I could fiddle with the NUC and make it work, but it was not family friendly. In general, the "it just works" factor is extremely high, which I could not say for the NUC.
If Apple ever goes evil, I'll just switch to whatever the best solution is when that happens (maybe a rooted Android TV device?). It's not like I'm marrying it. An Apple TV is $150. I've gotten 4 years out of my current one. The cost is negligible.
As I've gotten older, I've really come to value the "it just works" factor. I don't have time or energy for fiddly stuff anymore. After I put in the time to set something up, I want it to be rock solid. To each their own though.
> and use a wireless keyboard with integrated touchpad to control it.
Which wireless keyboard do you use? I've pretty much exact same setup - TV + Linux Mint + Logitech K400+. I'm just looking to see if there are better options for K400+
I use one of these https://www.tindie.com/products/zitaotech/bb-q10-bleusb-keyb...
The keymap takes some getting used to.
I am using a cheap Deltaco, but the range is a bit too low, so I am thinking of switching to a K400+
can't wait for valve to release the new controller with touchpads. Should be more compact than a keyboard and paired with some voice recognition would make the need for keyboard almost obsolete for smarttv usecase
100%. Confirmed by my Firewalla. These and HomePods only access apple.com and icloud.com domains unless you're using apps. No mysterious hard coded IP addresses. Apple TV also has the best hardware, by far.
Apple likely captures similar info but it is just they don’t sell the data but use exclusively for themselves.
> Apple is the only mainstream option where the hardware cost covers the experience, rather than your viewing habits subsidizing the device.
Years ago our refrain was "if you're not paying for the service, you're the product".
Nowadays we all recognize how naive that was; why would these psychopathic megacorporations overlook the possibility of both charging us and selling our privacy to the highest bidder?
In other words, Apple doesn't have a pass here. They're profiting from your data too, in addition to charging you the usual Apple tax. Why wouldn't they? Apple's a psychopathic megacorporation just like all the rest of them, whose only goal is to generate profit at any cost.
What's wrong with Roku?
100% agree and do the same. There's no way I'd let one of those things touch the network. That is insane for a techie and even scarier that normal people live that way.
does it matter if you use chromecast if you already have YouTube + google account on your phone and cast it to chromecast?
Once many people start doing this, there will be dark patterns to force you to connect to the internet.
It won't be long before products like this just get cellular modems built in.
Looking forward to free internet courtesy of the surveillance state
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There already are on Sony TVs. My roommate is always connecting it when I’m away and I have to factory reset it and go through the dark pattern to use it without WiFi.
how so? describe an example please.
Prompt for a login or to check for updates on every start or once a week. It wouldn’t be difficult to get the numbers up for the number of online devices.
Similar to Windows 11 force you to login with Microsoft Account during install?
ship a cell phone in every TV
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> Use an Apple TV for the "smart" features.
Use a PC for "smart" features. Used PC hardware is cheap and plenty effective. And the Logitech K400 is better than any TV remote.
No spying (unless you run Windows). Easy ad blocking. No reliance on platform-specific app support. Native support for multiple simultaneous content feeds (windows) - even from different services.
And it's not like it's complicated. My parents are as tech-illiterate as they come and they've been happily using an HTPC setup for over well over a decade. Anyone who can operate a "Smart TV" can certainly use a web browser.
Of course that's a viable option, but likely uses far more electricity in a year and unless you're going the high seas, unlikely to always get a better 4k HDR resolution from streaming services.
>but likely uses far more electricity in a year
Unlikely, Apple TV is itself a "PC", not much different.
An actual PC doesn't cost much for electricity in a year either (say $30/year headless for watching several hours a day and sleep mode the rest). Make it an ARM and it will be quite less.
I have the same setup and have never looked back. My kids can control the TV now via the browser instead of asking me to fiddle with a smartphone, and I can easily block e.g. YouTube via the hosts file. The ability to have multiple streaming services open in different tabs and reading online reviews all on the same screen is also vastly superior to any UX offered by e.g. Chromecast or similar devices.
What happened to having an HTPC?
For me: I want something that will always work with minimal effort and is easy to use for the family.
I've farted around with every HTPC software from MythTV on and I'm over it. I'll happily pay the premium for an AppleTV that will handle almost everything in hardware.
I solved this with a wireless keyboard and a Kensington trackball mouse running pure Fedora with scaling set to 200% in KDE Plasma.
Who needs a frontend? Just open brave.
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Jellyfin is pretty good
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Not user friendly and required dedicated hardware (TV tuners). Governing bodies also couldn't agree on HTPC standards, like Play4Sure, causing even more confusion. Plex and Sonarr/Radar are gaining some steam though.
They're great but my friends get confused when they're staying and I'm not there. Not having a normal remote throws people. Getting a remote to work perfectly and usefully in Linux isn't all that simple. Plus it's not at all easy for it to manage external inputs -- a smart TV can just switch to the ps5 with a button, how would i do that from my Linux htpc keyboard?
Don't get me wrong, I'm never giving up my ublock-YouTube plus steam plus Plex Linux htpc but there's plenty of reasons they're not super practical.
Also doesn't Netflix still throttle to 720p on PCs?
>They're great but my friends get confused when they're staying and I'm not there.
How often that happens to be a pain point?
they'll probably start using that bezos spy doorbell mesh network soon
then the only thing to do will be to rip out the antenna
> Apple is the only mainstream option where the hardware cost covers the experience, rather than your viewing habits subsidizing the device.
This might be temporarily a good rule of thumb to follow, but you will get monetized eventually. Nobody likes leaving money on the table. Same reason why subscription services now serve ads as well.
This except throw out the spyware that is an apple tv and get an intel n150 based mini pc (aoostar makes a nice one), throw bazzite on it, tell kde to auto login and auto load jellyfin and attach a flirc ir receiver and get a flirc remote for it. If you want to get fancy set a systemd timer to reboot it in the middle of the night.
If these things include WiFi hw it's not so simple.
You'd likely be surprised what proprietary WiFi-enabled consumer products do without your knowledge. Especially in a dense residential environment, there's nothing preventing a neighbor's WiFi AP giving internet access to everything it deems eligible within range. It may be a purely behind the scenes facility, on an otherwise ostensibly secured AP.
I see this claim posted a lot, and not a single person has ever provided evidence of it happening with any TV brand I've ever heard of.
I don't have firsthand knowledge of TVs doing this, but other consumer devices with WiFi most definitely do this. If you don't control the software driving the TV, and the TV has WiFi hardware, I would assume it's at the very least in the cards.
It's rationalized by the vendors as a service to the customer. The mobile app needs to be able to configure the device via the cloud, so increasing the ability for said device to reach cloud by whatever means necessary is a customer benefit.
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You're suggesting that my TV would connect to a random open WiFi, it sounds far fetched
At some point it will potentially connect to people walking by on the street (Amazon Sidewalk). For now they haven't hooked Fire TVs into it.
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As a thought exercise ask yourself would you notice if any of your closed WiFi-enabled hw scanned for APs and occasionally phoned home, if it didn't go out of its way to inform you of this? What would prevent the vendor from doing so?