Comment by mullingitover

4 days ago

I'm surprised the flock cameras aren't being disabled in a more subtle fashion.

All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint. Drone goes 'boop' on the camera lens, and the entire system is disabled until an expensive technician drives out with a ladder and cleans the lens at non-trivial expense.

A handful of enterprising activists could blind all the flock cameras in a region in a day or two, and without destroying them, which makes it less of an overtly criminal act.

Obviously not advocating this, just pointing out that flock is very vulnerable to this very simple attack from activists.

The goal here by activists isn't to directly physically disarm every camera. Like with any act of protest, it's at least as much about the optics and influence of public opinion. Visibly destroying the units is more cathartic and spreads the message of displeasure better. Ultimately what needs to change is public perception and policy.

  • There has been a pattern in the UK of destroying speed cameras for the same reasons - including in some cases throwing an old car tire around the pole and setting it on fire.

    Seems to be getting more popular [https://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/antiulez-campaigners-v...].

    • Those are not "speed" cameras, they're to enforce daily payment (or fines) for driving in "Ultra Low Emissions Zone" areas in non-compliant vehicles. The area covers all 32 London Boroughs, around 1,500 km² (580 square miles), - affecting approximately 9 Million people.

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  • If it's about sending a message, I think using a drone to defeat mass surveillance is quite evocative.

    • Yes. It will invoke the state to pass even more draconian laws surrounding useful technology.

      You want to evoke the people and not the state.

  • Sure, but por que no los dos.

    One or two cameras getting bashed is basically a fart in the wind for flock, and I'd argue that it doesn't actually move the needle in any direction as far as public opinion goes. Those who dislike them don't need further convincing, those who support them are not going to have their opinion changed by property destruction (it might make them support surveillance more, in fact).

    But hey, it's provocative I guess.

    On the other hand flock losing their entire fleet is an existential problem for them, and for all the customers they're charging for the use of that fleet. Their BoD will want answers about why the officers of the company are harming shareholders with the way they're operating the business. Cities that have contracts with them may have grounds to terminate them, etc etc.

Why would I fly an expensive drone close to a camera, fumble about for a minute trying to get it painted like a renaissance artist, when I can get a paintball gun for much less?

  • Or use a powerful enough laser pointer. Bonus points if you use infrared since other humans can't see the beam and won't know what you're up to.

    Though you either need a laser powerful enough to harm human eyes or lots of patience. Hong Kong protesters innovated a lot of these sort of resistance using lasers

  • Last I heard, putting a glock on a quadcopter was creating an "illegal weapon system" or similar fancy sounding BS but I wonder what the accusation would be for a paintball gun on a drone?

    Must less recoil too.

    • I don't think there's a drone in this proposal.

      On the list of "laws you don't want to screw with", National Firearms Act violations are high on my list. Regardless of whether something is or isn't a violation, I'm certainly not interested in paying expensive lawyers to argue they're not.

You want to fly a multi-hundred dollar device loaded with radios that constantly broadcasts out a unique ID and possibly your FAA ID and use it for crime?

Or even better yet, get arrested halfway to trying to dip your drone into paint on a sidewalk?

Just throw a rock at the stupid thing.

>All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint.

This must be the most hi-tech solution to a low tech problem I've seen this week ;)

Somewhat related, I'm pretty sure there was a guy in China who did exactly this as protest against their surveillance. Seems effective.

I wouldn’t suggest doing that, it will result in more regulation restricting drones. I joined before few workshops that included the government too, and there were discussions about requiring a whole license every time you modify the drone, not limited to the airframe, but the flight purpose and payload. So you can imagine in the future, modding or repurposing your drone could be a “federal crime” if you don’t go and re-license the drone every time you change the payload.

> A handful of enterprising activists could blind all the flock cameras in a region in a day or two, and without destroying them, which makes it less of an overtly criminal act

No, that would likely end in a RICO or terrorism case if it continued. Just because the cameras aren't destroyed doesn't mean CorpGov won't want to teach a lesson.

Why wouldn’t you advocate it? A much easier way of doing this is using paintballs with the appropriate paint.

  • > Why wouldn’t you advocate it?

    Because advocating things which are moral/ethical but illegal is often against the TOS :(

    We need laws which are explicitly based on moral principles. Barring that, we should at least have laws which treat sufficiently large platforms as utilities and forbid them from performing censorship without due process.

    • You think we should give people being moderated on a forum due process? How would we ever run forums if every contentious and necessary moderation action could lead to a 5k-50k legal bill.

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That would be detectable by the FAA and they would send the FBI after you, unless you used a junk toy drone but that would not cover much distance between charges.

In Minecraft it’s well known that lasers of even moderate power can ruin camera sensors. Only in Minecraft though.

  • Reflections are a concern regarding bystanders' eye safety, be safe.

    • What is the threshold for eye vs sensor damage and am I correct in assuming that duration is a factor. Basically less juice for a longer duration ruins a sensor but humans blink? For science.

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Because destroying them sends a different message. People want them gone, not merely disabled. They're not joking or messing around with drones and tempera about it. Using a firearm to wreck the camera lens before tearing the whole thing down would be nice though.

Shooting them with a paintball gun might be a lot simpler and has the same effect. Just needs paint that's a bit harder to remove

The should disable them all in an area and pile them on a platter in a public space. Like a CiCi's takeover.

Silly string is fast, cheap, easy, and fun when it freezes onto the camera in colder environments.

Maybe some spray foam?

  • Seems like it would produce a lot of litter on the ground before covering up the lens adequately.

> soaked with tempera paint Or even etching liquid, then you need to replace the lens.

The point of civil disobedience is to get arrested. That's what calls attention to the injustice of the thing being protested against.

  • The point of resistance is commonly to harm the counterparty in a fashion that the perpetrator finds morally acceptable such as to disincentivize them not convince them.

    Vietnamese vs US Grunts not cute useless protestors holding signs that threaten to hold different signs longer.

    • You're both partially right, and that highlights the difference between nonviolent and violent resistance. You are incorrect in saying that a resistance is always trying to disincentivize the counterparty. Even in your example, the NVA didn't overrun their counterparty (the US military); they convinced enough of the US voting public (which is very much a separate entity from the US military) that "Peace with honor" was a viable, preferable option.

>All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint. Drone goes 'boop' on the camera lens, and the entire system is disabled until an expensive technician drives out with a ladder and cleans the lens at non-trivial expense

Americans don’t care enough

Too busy enjoying S&P500 near 7,000 and US$84,000/year median household income

> All it takes is a tiny drone with a stick attached, and at the end of that stick is a tiny sponge soaked with tempera paint

I (EDIT: hate) Flock Safety cameras. If someone did this in my town, I’d want them arrested.

They’re muddying the moral clarity of the anti-Flock messaging, the ultimate goal in any protest. And if they’re willing to damage that property, I’m not convinced they understand why they shouldn’t damage other property. (More confidently, I’m not convinced others believe they can tell the difference.)

Flock Safety messages on security. Undermining that pitch is helpful. Underwriting it with random acts of performative chaos plays into their appeal.

> flock is very vulnerable to this very simple attack

We live in a free society, i.e. one with significant individual autonomy. We’re all always very vulnerable. That’s the social contract. (The fact that folks actually contemplating violent attacks tend to be idiots helps, too.)

  • Oh no! Not property damage! We can't possibly go that far!

    • > Not property damage! We can't possibly go that far!

      Anyone can go that far. The question is if it’s smart. The answer is it’s not. Acting out one’s need for machismo on a good cause is just selfish.

      If I were a Flock PR person, I’d be waiting for someone to pull a stunt like this. (Better: they shoot it.)

  • Oh please. Its tempera paint. It'll probably wash off in the next rain.

    • > Its tempera paint. It'll probably wash off in the next rain

      If they do it right. If they don’t, it doesn’t. And between the action and the next rain, Flock Safety gets to message about vandalism.

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