Comment by madrox
2 months ago
I don't think you have to have Fuck You Money to get to this point. Most people eventually become disillusioned with work enough that they reevaluate what matters to them. Getting a very profitable exit is just one way to trigger that experience.
In my experience, a lot of people who get into this state start self-sabotaging hard as a way of rejecting what feels, ironically, like losing control. Sudden freedom can feel foreign and lot like your world got forcibly taken away from you. I'm not surprised the author is turning down opportunities and breaking off with his girlfriend. It's a way of taking back control.
When this happened to me, I pivoted hard from getting satisfaction out of what I built to getting satisfaction out of developing people. Now I take great pride out of the careers I've nurtured...a lot more than what I've built, in most ways. I've heard others express similar ideas in different ways, like "I now enjoy making other people rich."
No matter what, I encourage the author to use this time to build connections instead of destroying them (real connections...not work or SF acquaintances). Something I did not read in this essay is how he grew closer to anyone (in fact, I read the opposite). No path out of this valley involves traveling alone.
> No path out of this valley involves traveling alone
In my opinion, this is the big take here
When you have enough money to not work, it becomes very lonely fast
All of a sudden you have tons of time, but no one to share it with. Everyone is busy, mostly with work (also, most people probably can’t afford the same things you can)
If you could coordinate to stop working at the same time as your significant other, and a few friends, then you at least would have a group to plan and do stuff with
One of the biggest meanings we can find in life, is the feeling of belonging
OP seems to be going through a belonging crisis. Trying to figure out what group he wants to belong to
> When you have enough money to not work, it becomes very lonely fast
I haven't made enough to not work but once my US immigration was sorted out (H1B isn't very leisure compatible), I took a year off to rediscover what all passed me by when I was working.
This was a lot of alone time, but not true loneliness.
For example, I would set up lunch with a friend, they would bail due to work emergencies or something but I would go eat there anyway.
Quickly learned to go to a place where multiple people were scheduled anyway, like heading to Berkley for a tech talk on Byzantine block chains or vector search algorithms, hoping something would interest me.
> OP seems to be going through a belonging crisis. Trying to figure out what group he wants to belong to
The first three months were a strange struggle with my Ego, because a large part of my "Get up and do things" was the belief that what I had to do was very important to others and the whole world stops if I stop moving. To get through the waves in life without feeling self pity about it, I honestly felt my work was what made the sun rise and the rain fall.
Suddenly, my self importance was shot to pieces immediately.
I wasn't important anymore, what I did wasn't important to others but only to me. All the years of sacrificing my own wants (not needs) suddenly felt dissonant.
Plus a lot of activities aren't cumulative in the way work is - cooking dinner today does nothing for dinner tomorrow, there's no way to add up that to something.
Work is particularly rewarding because it checks those two boxes for me - it adds up to something, slowly every day, plus what I do is important to others in way where they want you to succeed (unlike say training for the SF marathon, where it's all "I could never" from people who could, but don't want to).
Eventually, I went back to work, but now I drink that workahol in moderation.
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I read somewhere there are old money people in Europe faking that they are “working class” - not really to hide the fact that they are rich - to have people to hang out with in general.
If I ever got to the point of having fuck you money, I don't see myself stop hanging out with my friends. We all like movies and dinner and board games. That's all I need in order to hang out. My board game group as it is has a pretty broad spectrum of financial situations.
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> Everyone is busy, mostly with work (also, most people probably can’t afford the same things you can)
I would think if one were rich, and you knew who you wanted to spend time with, you could simply buy their time through various means. Pay some bills, get them a more relaxed job with more time, pay for vacations for them to go with you etc.
You would think so, but I have not found a single person who wants to take me up on that.
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Weird that you brought race into it, especially when your supposition is incorrect.
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> OP sounds like a rich white dude having rich white dude problems.
Yeah, definitely white: https://www.google.com/search?q=vinay+hiremath&btnG=Search&u...
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It seems like you grew into your loneliness and that you also did it consciously
OP found himself alone rather fast and without truly realizing it was happening
He’ll probably get over it at some point, will find a group to belong to and redefine his identity along the way
Neither situation is intrinsically better or worse, just different and subjective to each one of you
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In a way having money makes it harder because it makes it harder to blame your unhappiness on your circumstances.
Yep. I am not even rich. In fact compared to US software engineers I am making pennies, but I am hitting above average for where I live. And at times it is hard to find meaning in every day life. I like my job, but realistically I could quit now and just about coast with my savings for the rest of my life. On other hand I could increase my spending and live more luxurious life style, but that isn't for me. I just like to code, play video games, and be alone in peace and quiet.
Almost at that point myself. Thinking about doing another year or two to save up an additional buffer, and make sure we're not right before another 2008-like event before I pull the plug. Start my own company, maybe make some money, maybe not. I'm tired of the grind. I'm tired every single day, and there's no time or energy to try to fix it. At this point I just want to be left alone, in peace and quiet...
Honestly, if I ever reach the point where my savings would keep me comfortable with a pension to look forward to pick up the slack at the end, I'd quit my job and just focus on my interests, providing a clean house and having a good meal ready in the evening for my wife and son, and develop some side gigs I can give up if they don't give me fulfilment.
As it is, I am acutely aware of my privileges as part of a household with two IT-based incomes and not too many worries, and that the world being what it is right now is giving rise to so many uncertainties that I wouldn't dream of abandoning this unless I had a really big bag of money like the author.
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> > but that isn't for me. I just like to code, play video games, and be alone in peace and quiet.
Lack of desires is the first canary in the coal mine of a decrease in mood.
As much as it sounds empty those who are able to distinguish between a 500$ TV and a 5000$ one have a very fine tuned sense of desire which doesn't collapse at the tail end.
Nothing wrong with that. I find creating and supporting creators to be fulfilling.
100% - it takes away your hope. In this case, that by "making it" in the world of startups will fill the void in your life.
Yeah. When you have to work in order to live, it is easy to make the mistake of thinking that you would be happy if only you had money to quit your job and time do the things you want to do.
Once you get there, you have to face reality: while being poor leads to unhappiness, being financially independent does not lead to happiness either. Don't believe me? Look at billionaires out there; do all of them look like happy and well-adjusted people to you? Not naming names.
And that's why wealthy celebrities repeat again and again that "Money doesn't buy happiness". It's because they know from experience that it really doesn't help all that much.
I'm not sure I'm convinced. I guess I haven't had real money.
I had > 1m at one point. It was enough not to work. It wasn't enough to experiment with random things without risk. Couldn't buy a house in NYC,SF,LA,Seattle. Would just have to go back to work. Couldn't start a business for a project that required 10-20 people. Couldn't really start co-working space for 20-40 people at current rent prices without feeling like I'd probably just be throwing away a few hundred k.
What I could do is travel. Could also live anywhere for a few years.
OTOH, if I had F.U. money, I would do those things and more. I might hire people to do them. There are 5 to 10 apps I'd like to see exist. Would be happy to pay some people to make them and make them open source, if I had FU money. Would love to start a tech-interactive-art museum the size of at least most major museums in big cities. Would consider funding startups.
I have one friend, x-coworker, that picked a different path than me and made lots of $$$ (no idea how much). But, they invest in startups. Goal is to invest $1 million a year. They visit startups and pitch events once or twice a month. They also have a personal project. Otherwise they travel with their S.O. and visit their adult kids around the world.
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I suppose it depends on a person. I am pretty sure the more money I have started to make throughout my life the happier I have become. Simply because of having more freedom over how I spend my time. I feel like there is almost infinite amount of things to do in this World, I just wish I was able to 24/7 do those things. I don't have enough to not work for rest of my life, but I have been able to buy my own apartment, house, which has given me a lot of confidence in my self and feelings of freedom. I started out with no connections or education though.
I am sure it can be different for everyone, people see the World differently.
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Money doesn’t buy happiness but most people are subjected to artificial misery by this society and money does make that go away… at least, a fair share of it, probably 80 percent.
That said, a lot of people who get rich, because status is their real motivation, are shocked by how horrible society still is. At first they get hooked on the drug of high social status, but then they learn to see through the flattery and realize that nothing has truly changed, and they’re just as miserable as before. It tends to take about two years, in my observation, for the “new life energy” to wear off. Money teaches you that there isn’t some “better” society to aspire to. The people “up there” aren’t the supervillains Redditers imagine billionaires to be, but they’re not better either.
My daughter is autistic and when she started to learn how to read social cues she realized that her so-called friends didn’t actually like her, which I suspected myself but never had the chutzpah to say, and it made her angry. Getting rich has a similar “learn what people are really about” curse.
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What research there is suggests money/happiness follows a log-linear relationship.[1] So it kind of does buy happiness, but the rate of increase falls off pretty fast over the range most of us experience.
1: https://www.pnas.org/doi/abs/10.1073/pnas.2208661120
It's like that old saying, "where ever you go...there you are."
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> Money doesn't buy happiness
Yeah, but it let's you suffer in relative comfort which is the most that anyone can realisically strive for.
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Unhappy for different reasons is not the same.
Being unhappy because you are homeless is not the same being unhappy because some woman doesn't treat you like she would do a man who looks better than you are just two different things.
What a load. Only someone who has always had money would say this
That is the entire point.
Money removes unhappiness and raises you to a baseline, but after that it doesn't provide extra happiness in and of it self.
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Correct, because only by having money can most people understand the situation. You've proven this yourself by calling it "a load".
Zen monks have attained this understanding without the need to make the money first however.
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I did the same as OP. Quit my job then started distancing from everyone and removing responsibility in the pursuit of freedom to do what I want. But all I did was wallow and stay alone. Not sure what the answer is but your insights were very powerful to read.
I find this to be very familiar. I worked endlessly to be able to have no responsibility and endless freedom. My partner passed away several years ago now, and I still haven't filled that void. I'm not unhappy by any means, but money and freedom are a poor substitute for companionship.
Similar boat! I also worked hard to have freedom, and then my partner died, two and half years ago. I was left with a toddler, so don't have that much freedom. Sometimes I think perhaps it's ok this way...
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The book of Ecclesiastes is about this. It makes more sense if you s/meaningless/vapor/g, i.e. we're all chasing after something like smoke that we can see but can't 'catch'.
I love that book. Haven't read much of the bible, but totally recommend anyone to read this Buddhist sutra that was smuggled in somehow :)
Fascinating that your version said "vapor". That's a much better translation. The versions I've read called it "vanity" which was even more obtuse. Once I figured out that they meant something insubstantial and fleeting, I found that particular book beautiful.
Everybody here is catching smoke Looking for the ephemeral Swallowing the sun in a moonlit room Standing at the foot of a rainbow Everybody here is catching smoke Looking for the ephemeral Riding on a yellow-bellied brown snake Sipping on hedonism
Having a spouse helps, but overall I think this is a road to depression. People are social creatures and you need to be proactive with friends especially in the adulthood and also participate in communities if time allows (sports, interests etc.)
I've found myself in a similar position. I'm trying to figure out how to not be self-destructive, but I feel the urge to distance myself from people.
But why did you need to distance yourself from others? Or was that just a consequence from your other lifestyle choices?
I suspect it might feel indecent to tell others you suffer when you're both free and rich, and it's difficult for them to figure what's wrong with you.
Instead, people in such position should probably go out and join associations which distribute food to those who need it. At least they'll see that they're doing something good to improve others' condition and would probably feel better.
I am currently at the same place, with no reasonable place out. How did you solve it?
I think the shortest way of putting it is: stay curious; find people willing to teach you; teach others what you've been successful at.
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As someone who has not been successful in life but who is relatively intelligent do you have any recommendations as to how I can get my life on track?
I am asking because you said you like developing people. My persistent experience in life for almost 20 years post college has been nobody wants to develop me.
I am not in tech but I am generally interested in the area if it can lead me to greater independence and more interesting work.
I like jobs that are intellectually engaging and ideally somewhat physically active.
Right now I am working in a mechanical role.
Sometimes I like the work but more often than not I find that good problem solving ability is not valued and the pay is dismal vs. what people earn in tech.
I have a BA in economics but unfortunately have never used it. 37 years old.
> life for almost 20 years post college has been nobody wants to develop me.
Is that really possible? I have often thought that the only person that can develop you, is you.
Sure you might get some good advice from some people, maybe a helping hand, a business loan or grant etc. but I don't view that as development.
Your biggest asset is you. Don't be reluctant to use it.
Okay but for the vast overwhelming majority of people, what they actually need is "a helping hand, a business loan or grant etc"
You talk about this like this is trivial, but it's the kind of material help that would make a difference for almost everyone who is currently not doing what they want in life
Yes, no one can teach you to self-actualize. People's material circumstances are rarely a result of inadequate self-actualization or agency, despite what the self-help industry would like you to believe.
Most "high-agency" people who succeed started out with either adequate resources to at least support themselves while they tried stuff, reliable backup plans (like living with supportive family), or help in the form of stuff like grants or startup funding. People who don't have that need that, regardless of their mindset or abilities. There are exceptions who got incredibly lucky, and they are a rounding error among rounding errors. That is the world we live in. There are ways to engineer a world where this is less the case, but at least in the US, we seem to choose not to move in this direction at every opportunity, and freak out when even minor forms of the security necessary to act with agency take hold for large numbers of people (See: The business world's hysterical reaction to COVID relief)
Double down on that last bit: everything you learn and do adds to the equity that is you. That equity pays back in multitudes throughout your life, not just professionally but also socially and spiritually.
If you figure it out, pass it on to others. I haven’t been allowed to hire Americans in quite some time, and Covid destroyed any company support of an apprenticeship type setup.
The last time I was able to hire an American with a will to learn and an adjacent degree was over a decade ago.
I’ve hired dozens of smart Americans with the right degree and willingness to learn and I was not even American myself. I worked with hundreds more. Not sure what you’re talking about.
Learn a musical instrument. Stick at it and over time you will find you can create music , which will make you feel successful.
Excellent advice. For those for whom it's appropriate, do try it. As you suggest, therein lies that special essentially private pleasure of accomplishment in small things that doesn't depend on the approbation of others.
It’s unlikely you’ll find someone who takes an interest in developing you, who isn’t a personal connection or someone you pay, in my experience. You will probably have to take the first step yourself, either to develop yourself or to find and develop a nurturing relationship.
Choose companies to work for based on who you will be working with and what they can teach you, not by how much they pay. You never want to be the smartest person in the room.
I can't speak to your specific circumstances, but perhaps this will help.
I find that people I talk to with chronic job dissatisfaction have a difficult time taking risks, because despite not liking their current circumstances, the unknown can be scary.
There are known pathways to work in tech or other fields, such as coding camps or community college. It becomes a question of what you're willing to sacrifice to make that happen. Would you move to a new city? Go back to school? Give up your evenings and weekends? Usually, some kind of risk needs to be taken, and there's always a path forward if you look.
I didn't graduate college until I was 29, and now that I'm in my mid-40s I can say that while every risk I took didn't pay off, it was in the taking of risks that has left me feeling satisfied with where I am.
Dog on rusty nail parabole comes to mind
https://www.hashtagyourlife.com/stories/dog-rusty-nail
> As someone who has not been successful in life but who is relatively intelligent do you have any recommendations as to how I can get my life on track?
I'm not the OP, but instead just a person who thinks they might be of help. Caveat emptor and all that :-).
Success is what we define both in and of ourselves. Some use material measurements (money, titles, assets, etc.), which are intrinsically relative and thus ephemeral.
Another definition is establishing a sustained environment of happiness. This includes addressing immediate physical needs, such as a place to live, sustenance, and the like. More than that is finding happiness in how we live each day.
> My persistent experience in life for almost 20 years post college has been nobody wants to develop me.
While some may give tips and/or pointers as to how to develop oneself, IMHO, much like happiness, development comes from within. Seeking wise counsel is always a good call, but no one can develop another. All anyone else can do is give perspective from their own journey as it relates to you - mine is you have identified options above which are appealing, so pursue them as if no one else is going to anything to make it happen.
> I have a BA in economics but unfortunately have never used it.
You still have it and one never knows when the education we have helps out until it does. ;)
>Sometimes I like the work but more often than not I find that good problem solving ability is not valued and the pay is dismal vs. what people earn in tech.
I'm not sure the high wages in tech are going to last, universities having been minting new CS graduates like there is no tomorrow. Alongside that demand appears to be flagging. I'm sure you remember enough from your BA to know what the result of that is.
> Something I did not read in this essay is how he grew closer to anyone (in fact, I read the opposite). No path out of this valley involves traveling alone.
I think he needs to get closer to himself. I think he's on the right track.
I've found that you don't see yourself without people around you to hold up a mirror
Exactly this. Also, it is difficult to find those people when you're already rich and unemployed because most of us form these kind of meaningful relationships in school, at work etc.
I am drowning in debt since I graduated from my PhD, all I get is rejections for my job applications... I want to learn how to be rich because that is the only way I can get back to the US and live with my kids and provide for them (US born, living with their mom).
Thanks in anticipation.
I have rich and satisfying family and community life. Not having to work would mean that I can enjoy more of that. I'm confident it would be nothing short of fantastic in my case.
I don't think you have to have Fuck You Money to get to this point. Most people eventually become disillusioned with work enough that they reevaluate what matters to them. Getting a very profitable exit is just one way to trigger that experience.
I’ve seen a lot of people have random outlier success they didn’t earn and it seems to have the same effect as what most people get out of their careers: crushing failure they didn’t earn. By 50 or so, everyone figures out:
* it was almost all random. * the things that seemed so important were not. * working for money is a waste of time for almost everyone. * you can count your real friends on two hands, whether you’re broke or a billionaire.
It’s surprising how the paths converge. There are differences, and the rich version of alienation is better than the poor one, but the mindset this society leaves people with is remarkably stable. No one feels like they won, which is why Musk and Trump are so full of rage at everyone. Either the gods shut you out or you are forced to find out that the gods never existed.
There's a lot of truth in what you are saying, but I also think this framing can lead to unnecessary nihilism and depression.
I think the simple reason that no one feels like they've won is because we're not biologically wired for that. Like all living things, we've evolved to struggle for survival in a harsh environment. Of course modern civilization has separated us from that harsh reality by layers upon layers of human systems and supply chains, so we apply the same instincts to games of our own devising. There's nothing actually wrong with this though. The problem comes from the belief that "winning" will make one happy. The reality is ones drive leads to engagement and perhaps accomplishment, but it can't answer the why. That is something every person with leisure time needs to work out for themselves.
Thank you for this post, remarkably articulated, I concur.
> working for money is a waste of time for almost everyone
No. Chance doesn’t fall evenly. It falls more often on those who work.
Thinking that Trump is full of rage is missing the forest for the tree. It’s a forest of journalists who are full of rage that this race and gender unapologetically exists, who try to depaint Trump as full of rage. It’s a forest of selfish crowd who wants the fruit of the labor of the second half of people, who complain that Trump is selfish.
Looked at the tree. Missed the entire forest. Not surprising that you think people are struck by a lightening to become billionaire.
Chop chop chop, back to work, quit being jealous.
Extrapolate from your current lifestyle. What will you have in your last year alive?
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> I don't think you have to have Fuck You Money to get to this point.
To add to this, the 'modern' use of the word 'millionare' started in 1850 (discounting first use in 1719 in France which was not in the context of 'rich' we know).
When you adjust for inflation, a comperable purchase power today would be an equivalent of having net worth of $250M. Anything below that and you aren't even a 'true' millionare. ($1 USD in 1850 is roughly ~$250 USD in 2024, taking 3.2% average historic inflation rate).
So, author, you are not even rich, still work to do ;)
from https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/1900-id...:
> Something I did not read in this essay is how he grew closer to anyone (in fact, I read the opposite).
Yeah. The entire blog post (to me) gives the strong impression that the author is an extremely self centred, selfish... er... prick.
Maybe they'll learn to be less that way over time, and hopefully their ex-girlfriend learns to avoid ungrateful people.
It also gives a strong impression of somebody who is afraid of asking for help. The entire post could be summarized as "I feel like an important self-made man and I'm scared of starting therapy that I clearly need to help me sort out my enormous insecurities"
> No path out of this valley involves traveling alone.
Just wanted to let you know, for unknown reasons this statement really resonated with me, thank you.
How do you get to a point of developing people? What is that Job title? At work I'm the goto guy for junior engineers to ask questions to and I've been told I'm a naturally good teacher
It's called management and the entry point is usually called tech lead / team lead or just manager. Mentoring juniors is a good way to start.
Contact your local university, most have mentorship programmes you can apply to be a part of for under and post grads.
Oh I meant in like private industry
> No path out of this valley involves traveling alone.
Unless you have a schizoid personality.