There have been quips for many years about the dragnets of intelligence services and that "Stasi couldn't even dream about having such vast data" and similar.
But now we aren't talking about intelligence services anymore. ICE truly is Stasi for America, employing tactics such as "isolating them, depriving them of sleep and using psychological tricks such as threatening to arrest relatives." (From Wikipedia about Stasi.)
This year ICE will also become the "armed wing of the Party" thanks to fresh funding.
We're well past the point that they should be, I would be more concerned their descendants won't be, based on, let's say the last 250 years of this national experiment.
Grandchild: "Grandpa, what was it like back then, when ICE was snatching innocent people off the streets and the President was putting some them in dictator prisons without trial? Before the super bad stuff started?"
Grandpa: "It was a very controversial time, yes. Lots of people doing what they believed was best."
Grandchild: "Did ICE ever go after you?"
Grandpa: "I worked for the--it was only office--I mean, I was unemployed then. Yes, that's right! Tricky economy, don't you know. Only odd-jobs. I lived in a place where those things weren't happening. In fact, most of us didn't really know about it until it was all over. You remember that, right dear?"
Mother: <frustrated death-glare> "...Come along, let's wash your hands before dinner."
>ICE will also become the "armed wing of the Party"
interesting that the ICE is performing that hallmark of 20th century - mass removal of "undesirable" people from society and placement them into the camps without criminal charge and judicial oversight, etc. thus totally undermining the main contract between government and society - due process.
I don't think Stasi is the most apt comparison, rather the Gestapo, where the "Geheime" did not refer to their existence being secret, rather their standards of operation, chain of command, and general accountability being beyond oversight from the electorate.
The difference for me is that the Stasi seemingly had more competent people and more people that actually believed in what they were doing and thought it effective. With none of that, these are the actions of an organization that is failing and full of incompetence. It is even more alarming how effective they could be if anyone actually believed in them, including their own leadership or if the cause actually attracted worthwhile participants.
Such competent participants flock to these terror organisations only after it has proven itself a viable career path. Compare the chaos and mayhem of the brownshirts in Germany before the war, vs the Gestapo later. Very chaotic evil vs lawful evil.
At this point in time, it's not apparent if the current regime will prevail. Thus, it's time for brownshirt tactics. When Presidential/King/Dictatorial power is fully consolidated, States' Rights are just a memory, and all nonloyal judges are fired, it's time for the disciplined Career Bureaucrats to join ICE.
The iron curtain wasn't so iron from the beginning. The Berlin wall was built in 1961, that is 12 years after the east German republic was founded. 16 years worth of able workers draining from the soviet-occupied part to Western Germany.
Shall we put a reminder in our calendars to talk again in 2037?
It's a question of incentives. From what I've heard: ICE agents are incentivized to the tune of $5000 for every immigrant deported. So they go after the low-hanging fruits: the immigrants coming in for their periodic immigration court hearings, the Home Depot parking lots, etc.
This is why you hear about old grannies being arrested and deported and random immigrant workers with no criminal history being nabbed.
Basically, ICE is a group of bounty hunters and they have no qualms about breaking the law if it leads to a nice payday.
Interesting ; Do you have any official or investigative links regarding incentives per deportation?
I understand their recruitment incentives are out of this world, but have not found reliable source for per-deportation incentives, and want to make sure I argue with 100% factually supported data.
I do not, unfortunately. It's just something I heard; though it would explain why ICE is going after law-abiding immigrants instead of criminals as originally intended.
That would certainly explain the lack of publicized confrontation. If they were mostly deporting actual criminals / gang members, one would expect more stories akin to the events today.
Lol, no. NATO stopped the Genocide from Serbia, helps protect Ukraine against Genocide from Ruzzia and protected Europe from russian invasion and loss of human freedoms for many decades. NATO is a net positive for all of Humanity.
No. The Constitution is the law, and everyone working for this regime is an anti-American traitor. I'm pretty sure the terror squads are wearing masks because if we could identify them, we would see most have been drawn from so-called "patriot" militias [0] and let loose to attack American cities under the color of law (which apparently now includes executing citizens).
[0] the naming of which also turned out to be another lie, surprise surprise
> ICE is specifically the enforcement arm of the U.S. immigration apparatus.
If you add up the budgets of all the various "police" forces in the US, how much money is spent each year keeping the domestic population in line?
I'm interested, as it seems that lots of groups in the US have their own overlapping police force rather than relying on "the" police. Apart from the total budget, it would be interesting to see a list of all the various police type forces at work in the US.
Even if masked, unidentified armed men are trying to shoot you? That sounds an awful lot like self defence. Or it might have been nothing but an attempt to flee.
But perhaps fleeing is also punishable by Death by our new Stasi/Judge Dread balaclava wearing hybrids.
There was a time when police were banned from putting a tracker on people's cars without a court order.
The argument was, yes it's legal to put a tail on a person when they're out in public because that's just a cop observing a person of interest out in public. But electronic trackers are something quantifiable different due to the ease of tracking many people without having to use manpower to do it. It's the thin-edge of mass, casual surveillance of the population.
In other words, putting a tail on someone should be manpower intensive because that's a check on police power, they have to really want to track someone to invest potentially several officers' time to it full time, whereas sticking a bug on a car is something they can do to dozens of cars per day per officer.
Of course now they don't even have to do that because our police state has normalized centralized cctv camera databases, license plate trackers that continuously track the movement of every vehicle in a city into a database. Now they're doing the same with facial recognition.
Now it's even a felony in Florida to do anything to block license plate trackers from tagging your vehicle (so you can't obscure your plate in a way that leaves it readable to humans but not to the automatic tracking software). No doubt we'll have such laws for facial recognition software soon as well.
In general I agree, but thinking of counter-arguments -- criminals are not playing by the same rules and use every manpower-reducing technologies. So if police to keep to their traditional methods, then criminals will have upper hand, and more so with technological advances.
A good friend of mine who also works on tech is utterly disconnected from current events. Whenever I offer a discussion or say “hey did you hear about X?” his response is always skepticism that such a thing could occur. He has a newborn and now he’s even more disconnected (somewhat more understandable given the child).
It seems like a lot of people in tech are like that, or increasingly like that. I have a diverse stable of publications, journalists, subject matter current events podcasters, and other sources in my feed readers and my circle. Sitting between these things, it seems like there is a widening gulf.
by that logic it is perfectly legal for AMZN to openly publish the whole vast-vast trove of Ring videos. I do think it is legal, just wondering what would government do it if AMZN actually does it. I also think the governments at all levels should publish all the license plate readers data because it was collected/bought on the public dime and thus a public property.
Remember how people used to say "Why did the vast majority of people, non-Nazis, just go along? Why did nobody do anything about the Nazis?". We're seeing it right now. ICE is now an organization acting with violence outside of its jurisdiction, like the SA were for the Nazis.
Given the comparison was already made, what do you think of the Nuremberg laws, then? They were laws that, in as many words, made being a jew illegal in Germany and stripped them of their own citizenship status. That is just "the law being carried out", too, I guess.
ICE carried out it's mission without all the theatrics before, and deported more people in previous years. The theatrics, and the collateral damage to American citizens or those with actual temporary rights to be here, is the point with this current administration. A fair and apt comparison.
The immigration laws of this country still require, on the paper that most of trusted until not so long ago, due process, which ICE are flagrantly violating, to include "arresting"(kidnapping) people following the written law to gain citizenship and cancelling the programs that people have been living under for decades that granted them legal non-citizenship status.
You can call that "enforcing the law" once you admit that the "law" is, at this point, the whim of a despot and his cronies
For those lacking context, ICE shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis today. An agent standing beside a car shot a driver through a car window, killing her and causing the car to lose control and crash into other parked cars.
Allegedly, the agent shot in self defense, but the shot was taken after the car started moving away from the agent.
The woman was identified as a 37 year old US citizen. She was not part of any ICE protest groups.
On the contrary — the timing is perfect. Yesterday, that statement could've been described as hyperbole or a far-fetched hypothetical. Today, it's a different story.
They broadly probably didn't believe grocery prices would "go down", but they were also very angry about inflation. The polling reflected that economic issues topped voter motivations. Add to that the Biden administration hiding his dementia, and perceptions about illegal immigration and crime, and it wouldn't matter who the Republican candidate is.
This was part of a sweeping anti-incumbent sentiment that occurred globally. Kamala did ok with educated white voters, while black, hispanic and asian voters shifted right; do they all just hate brown people? I doubt it.
People have very little reason to be honest during polls, so I find them hard to believe. Polling data led to predictions about Hillary winning in 2016.
Even if there was a slight “shift right” in black and Asian voters, it was still kind of marginal.
According to Pew, about 83% of black voters still voted for Kamala, with 15% voting for Trump, and 60% of Asians voted for Kamala.
I can envision that much internalized racism in either of those groups, but even if that weren’t the case, there are lots of different races and they could convince themselves that “the other ones” are the bad ones, and Trump won’t hurt them. I do not think what you are saying dispels anything I said at all.
She is a naturalized citizen and we were very sure to make sure that literally nothing on the paperwork could be considered dishonest.
That said, you're objectively wrong, and if you had read the article in discussion you'd see that. The Trump admin has been detaining natural born citizens, and they've even been given permission to racially profile in the process.
This requires about ten seconds of research to find out, so you are being dishonest by posting stuff like this, either directly or intellectually.
There is a lot of internalized racism in Latino communities, so I don't think that that is necessarily in conflict with what I said.
Just because you can find a lot of minorities signing up for ICE jobs doesn't really change anything, even if they were all Hispanic. You can always find examples of people going against their own self interest.
There are black white-nationalists [1] out there. There are women who will openly say that women shouldn't be allowed to vote [2].
"I didn't like the DNC so I decided to vote for someone who is an unapologetic racist sack of shit and who bragged about how he'd abuse the presidency to get revenge on his enemies" really doesn't change anything to what I said.
I'm not a huge fan of the DNC either but I think that they're being used as a scapegoat for people not to own their terrible decisions to vote for a moronic demagogue.
Maybe Democrats didn't vote [for Harris] because of that decision.
But the idea that they instead voted for Trump, or that people who went out of their way to vote for Trump would have voted for the Democrat candidate if they had just "been better than Harris" is so fucking absurd it's actively insulting that you try to claim this.
> Most Americans, in contrast with the DNC platform, think it's gross to select candidates for a job based on their race.
Most Americans think it is gross to select candidates for a job based on how much money they've given you, how willing they are to look the other way for your crimes, or how pretty you think they look.
> hiring based on their accomplishments and skills
That you can look at the Trump administration and say this with a straight face is demonstrative of how ignorant you are.
Most Americans think it’s gross to select minority candidates based on their race. If you’re a lying, corrupt, incompetent, moronic sack of shit, but you’re a white man, they’ll elect you president.
You can thank the DNC for the appalling choices in federal elections, they decided it was best to mess around with race and gender quotas instead of putting forward genuine candidates.
That's like shooting your own foot off. He's always been this person. He was this person in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, etc. it's fucking crazy to me that anyone, ever, ever, votes for him. It's really opened my eyes to the realities of a lot of folks out there.
I wish people would be honest with themselves and the rest of us when they go on about ICE.
"Abolish ICE" sounds like you think once you get a few miles past the border, no one should be able to apprehend you. Sounds like you just want open borders.
Even if you think they should use different methods, or be more careful, it's still stupid to say "abolish ICE" or "we should dox and harass all ICE officers and interfere with them." That's just as dumb as saying that because several people die every day from medical malpractice we need to abolish doctors and hospitals.
Borders don't exist if you just let whoever wants to, come and stay forever and do whatever they want. And that's also why legal immigrant citizens moved to the right in recent years. They think it's messed up that they worked hard, paid a ton of money, followed all the rules, meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
> And that's also why legal immigrant citizens moved to the right in recent years. They think it's messed up that they worked hard, paid a ton of money, followed all the rules, meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Yeah, you don't speak for me.
As a legal immigrant whose immigration to the US took several years and cost in the neighborhood of $30,000, I think it's messed up that it costs that amount of money to immigrate here, that pardoned J6 rioters are paid signing bonuses of $50,000 to be "law enforcement" and $5,000 per deportation to run around playing judge, jury, and in this case executioner, answerable to no-one, unbadged, masked and unidentifiable (because "fuck brown people/libs, amirite?"), because they run under a government entity that tells other government entities "fuck you, you can't tell me what to do".
> meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Perhaps you should look at whether or not some of those countries have signed treaties on asylum seekers.
ICE is a corrupt agency hiring the worst of society, whom just murdered a woman for no reason other than to power trip. The state apparatus immediately leapt into action, calling her a terrorist, a criminal, that this action was justified. This is only the most recent of their numerous crimes against the American people.
If you want to believe we need some form of immigration enforcement then fine, but ICE isn't it. ICE needs to go, yesterday. And every single person who joined said agency investigated, jailed and kept away from polite society. This is non-debatable.
ICE didn't exist prior to 2002, neither did CBP in it's current form, and they have done a lousy job of enforcing immigration, either at the border or internally, and primarily now exist as an internal secret police force under the personal control of the president. There is no reforming either of them, and they should both be completely disbanded and replaced with a new immigration enforcement service, ideally not under DHS which should also be disbanded. Everyone who currently works for either ICE and CBP should be fired and they can re-apply to whatever gets created to replace them after a thorough background check, if they don't get jailed.
ICE has only been around for about 20 years. It is not the only mechanism of immigration enforcement. It is, at its very structure, a system of violence.
Abolish ICE. I am 100% literal and serious when I say this. The agency should be dissolved.
When the Nazis fell, the occupation forces didn’t say “you can’t abolish the Gestapo, we need police, otherwise it’s just anarchy.” They got rid of the Nazi machine and replaced it.
ICE is rotten to the core. It should be abolished and replaced. Create a new organization with new leadership. Ban anyone from a leadership position in ICE from being employed by the new organization. Maybe allow the rank-and-file to apply, but they have to start fresh and are treated like any other applicant at best.
“Abolish ICE” isn’t about immigration enforcement. It’s about bringing to heel a reckless, out of control, proto secret police. “Abolish ICE” is about immigration enforcement as much as shooting a US citizen in the face is.
Currently, no comment anywhere in this discussion mentions abolishing ICE. Was something edited away? This seems like a misdirection. You have picked several inflammatory positions that nobody here is openly advocating.
I am personally concerned with the rule of law and the also extreme polarization of American society.
Keep in mind that first offense for being in the US illegally is a misdeameanor. I say this as we have a president with 34 felonies and got nothing for it. On top of that, we have ICE tactics like unreasonable searches and seizures, no due process rights, and racial profiling which are all against the law. We know this because US citizens were deported without any due process to make sure they were here illegally.
Casual reminder that the movie The Matrix is older than ICE. The country survived just fine without it before that. Abolishing ICE will not impact us negatively.
What's the connection between the movie The Matrix and ICE?
Also, did the country truly survive just fine without it before that? Are you familiar with crime stats? Could you share the data on levels of crime carried by illegal immigrants over the years?
"These laws are supported by the vast majority of voters."
Most voters don't support ICE's gestapo tactics:
"Voters 56 - 39 percent disapprove of the way U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, is doing its job."
"Republicans (77 - 17 percent) approve of the way ICE is doing its job, while Democrats (89 - 9 percent) and independents (64 - 32 percent) disapprove of the way ICE is doing its job."
From what I've seen immigration laws are nothing more than a pretext. If police were pulling over motorists for speeding and then summarily executing them, it would be idiotic to buy an excuse that they are merely enforcing traffic laws, right?
Border enforcement is only the excuse to build a paramilitary force akin to the Blackshirts or the Sturmabteilung that will do whatever violence is asked of them.
Dude, every country has borders and most take it seriously. In many countries, such as Poland, they shoot at people crossing the border illegally. A country with no enforced borders is no country at all.
If you want to revise your assessment to include the creation of this problem by having a lax border, I can agree with you somewhat. We should not require border police far away from the borders. But we do require it now, because certain malicious politicians let in a bunch of people illegally.
There have been quips for many years about the dragnets of intelligence services and that "Stasi couldn't even dream about having such vast data" and similar.
But now we aren't talking about intelligence services anymore. ICE truly is Stasi for America, employing tactics such as "isolating them, depriving them of sleep and using psychological tricks such as threatening to arrest relatives." (From Wikipedia about Stasi.)
This year ICE will also become the "armed wing of the Party" thanks to fresh funding.
The Stasi needed a significant segment of the DDR's population to be snitches. ICE just needs Palentir.
Oh, the snitches are there too, just check some of the comments in this thread. They only need a few percent.
I fear we are at the point where descendants of ICE employees will be embarrassed to acknowledge the relation.
Keep in mind that some Americans still proudly fly the Confederate flag.
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We're well past the point that they should be, I would be more concerned their descendants won't be, based on, let's say the last 250 years of this national experiment.
there are plenty of people who are children of cops or military who have no shame, so I doubt it
Or be proud once the history has been rewritten
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Or we make it impossible to inflict such North Korean, Soviet, or Chinese style harassment such that the sins of one have no ability to propagate.
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Grandchild: "Grandpa, what was it like back then, when ICE was snatching innocent people off the streets and the President was putting some them in dictator prisons without trial? Before the super bad stuff started?"
Grandpa: "It was a very controversial time, yes. Lots of people doing what they believed was best."
Grandchild: "Did ICE ever go after you?"
Grandpa: "I worked for the--it was only office--I mean, I was unemployed then. Yes, that's right! Tricky economy, don't you know. Only odd-jobs. I lived in a place where those things weren't happening. In fact, most of us didn't really know about it until it was all over. You remember that, right dear?"
Mother: <frustrated death-glare> "...Come along, let's wash your hands before dinner."
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>ICE will also become the "armed wing of the Party"
interesting that the ICE is performing that hallmark of 20th century - mass removal of "undesirable" people from society and placement them into the camps without criminal charge and judicial oversight, etc. thus totally undermining the main contract between government and society - due process.
I don't think Stasi is the most apt comparison, rather the Gestapo, where the "Geheime" did not refer to their existence being secret, rather their standards of operation, chain of command, and general accountability being beyond oversight from the electorate.
Apples and oranges, though, and it's all fruit.
The difference for me is that the Stasi seemingly had more competent people and more people that actually believed in what they were doing and thought it effective. With none of that, these are the actions of an organization that is failing and full of incompetence. It is even more alarming how effective they could be if anyone actually believed in them, including their own leadership or if the cause actually attracted worthwhile participants.
Such competent participants flock to these terror organisations only after it has proven itself a viable career path. Compare the chaos and mayhem of the brownshirts in Germany before the war, vs the Gestapo later. Very chaotic evil vs lawful evil.
At this point in time, it's not apparent if the current regime will prevail. Thus, it's time for brownshirt tactics. When Presidential/King/Dictatorial power is fully consolidated, States' Rights are just a memory, and all nonloyal judges are fired, it's time for the disciplined Career Bureaucrats to join ICE.
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The iron curtain wasn't so iron from the beginning. The Berlin wall was built in 1961, that is 12 years after the east German republic was founded. 16 years worth of able workers draining from the soviet-occupied part to Western Germany.
Shall we put a reminder in our calendars to talk again in 2037?
The fleeing part comes later, don’t you worry. It takes time to break people’s hope.
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It's a question of incentives. From what I've heard: ICE agents are incentivized to the tune of $5000 for every immigrant deported. So they go after the low-hanging fruits: the immigrants coming in for their periodic immigration court hearings, the Home Depot parking lots, etc.
This is why you hear about old grannies being arrested and deported and random immigrant workers with no criminal history being nabbed.
Basically, ICE is a group of bounty hunters and they have no qualms about breaking the law if it leads to a nice payday.
Interesting ; Do you have any official or investigative links regarding incentives per deportation?
I understand their recruitment incentives are out of this world, but have not found reliable source for per-deportation incentives, and want to make sure I argue with 100% factually supported data.
I do not, unfortunately. It's just something I heard; though it would explain why ICE is going after law-abiding immigrants instead of criminals as originally intended.
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That would certainly explain the lack of publicized confrontation. If they were mostly deporting actual criminals / gang members, one would expect more stories akin to the events today.
Actual criminals may have guns and know how to use them. That's bad risk / reward ratio. They should know, many of ICE are (pardoned) criminals!
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i disagree
ICE should be disbanded and most of its leadership jailed for their crimes.
I won’t be shocked if the next president includes defunding ICE as a major campaign promise.
Yeah by whom?
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Lol, no. NATO stopped the Genocide from Serbia, helps protect Ukraine against Genocide from Ruzzia and protected Europe from russian invasion and loss of human freedoms for many decades. NATO is a net positive for all of Humanity.
And my country (unfortunately) isnt even in NATO.
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Earlier today, an ICE officer murdered a woman, a story that's kind of dominated the news cycle today.
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No. The Constitution is the law, and everyone working for this regime is an anti-American traitor. I'm pretty sure the terror squads are wearing masks because if we could identify them, we would see most have been drawn from so-called "patriot" militias [0] and let loose to attack American cities under the color of law (which apparently now includes executing citizens).
[0] the naming of which also turned out to be another lie, surprise surprise
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> ICE is specifically the enforcement arm of the U.S. immigration apparatus.
If you add up the budgets of all the various "police" forces in the US, how much money is spent each year keeping the domestic population in line?
I'm interested, as it seems that lots of groups in the US have their own overlapping police force rather than relying on "the" police. Apart from the total budget, it would be interesting to see a list of all the various police type forces at work in the US.
Following up my own comment, it turns out that Wikipedia has a lot of information on this subject. This article seems like a good jumping off point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_...
Will they murder more or fewer innocent people with better surveillance data?
Well they don't care if you're innocent or not, so I'm wagering 'more'.
Less. More surveillance will mean more opportunities for parallel construction, so they will be able to "justify" more murders.
> More surveillance will mean more opportunities for parallel construction, so they will be able to "justify" more murders.
— Sent from my Palantir employee device
(Satire, if not obvious.)
More. It's always more.
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Even if masked, unidentified armed men are trying to shoot you? That sounds an awful lot like self defence. Or it might have been nothing but an attempt to flee.
But perhaps fleeing is also punishable by Death by our new Stasi/Judge Dread balaclava wearing hybrids.
You can also kill guilty people and that can be murder.
You can also not kill any people and that will be absence of murder. That's not what is being discussed.
Been doin that for a while.
Check out Indeed.com and search for IT gigs in Northern VA or MD or DC, or a couple other federal-ish locations.
Lots of "180k for 6 month contract supporting DHS client deploying next gen cameras"
not sure this can be stopped as long as it's legal to record in public
There was a time when police were banned from putting a tracker on people's cars without a court order.
The argument was, yes it's legal to put a tail on a person when they're out in public because that's just a cop observing a person of interest out in public. But electronic trackers are something quantifiable different due to the ease of tracking many people without having to use manpower to do it. It's the thin-edge of mass, casual surveillance of the population.
In other words, putting a tail on someone should be manpower intensive because that's a check on police power, they have to really want to track someone to invest potentially several officers' time to it full time, whereas sticking a bug on a car is something they can do to dozens of cars per day per officer.
Of course now they don't even have to do that because our police state has normalized centralized cctv camera databases, license plate trackers that continuously track the movement of every vehicle in a city into a database. Now they're doing the same with facial recognition.
Now it's even a felony in Florida to do anything to block license plate trackers from tagging your vehicle (so you can't obscure your plate in a way that leaves it readable to humans but not to the automatic tracking software). No doubt we'll have such laws for facial recognition software soon as well.
In general I agree, but thinking of counter-arguments -- criminals are not playing by the same rules and use every manpower-reducing technologies. So if police to keep to their traditional methods, then criminals will have upper hand, and more so with technological advances.
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ICE doesn't have any shortage of blatantly illegal behavior to point to. I don't think many people realize how far gone the rule of law is already.
I am endlessly frustrated about that.
A good friend of mine who also works on tech is utterly disconnected from current events. Whenever I offer a discussion or say “hey did you hear about X?” his response is always skepticism that such a thing could occur. He has a newborn and now he’s even more disconnected (somewhat more understandable given the child).
It seems like a lot of people in tech are like that, or increasingly like that. I have a diverse stable of publications, journalists, subject matter current events podcasters, and other sources in my feed readers and my circle. Sitting between these things, it seems like there is a widening gulf.
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by that logic it is perfectly legal for AMZN to openly publish the whole vast-vast trove of Ring videos. I do think it is legal, just wondering what would government do it if AMZN actually does it. I also think the governments at all levels should publish all the license plate readers data because it was collected/bought on the public dime and thus a public property.
there are plenty of sites at least in the USA where you have live cameras of public areas, hosted by the governments themselves.
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Everyone should spend a little time looking at the DHS twitter.
Nobody should spend time on twitter.
Remember how people used to say "Why did the vast majority of people, non-Nazis, just go along? Why did nobody do anything about the Nazis?". We're seeing it right now. ICE is now an organization acting with violence outside of its jurisdiction, like the SA were for the Nazis.
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Given the comparison was already made, what do you think of the Nuremberg laws, then? They were laws that, in as many words, made being a jew illegal in Germany and stripped them of their own citizenship status. That is just "the law being carried out", too, I guess.
ICE carried out it's mission without all the theatrics before, and deported more people in previous years. The theatrics, and the collateral damage to American citizens or those with actual temporary rights to be here, is the point with this current administration. A fair and apt comparison.
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So you are asserting that the American citizen shot today was in the country illegally?
The immigration laws of this country still require, on the paper that most of trusted until not so long ago, due process, which ICE are flagrantly violating, to include "arresting"(kidnapping) people following the written law to gain citizenship and cancelling the programs that people have been living under for decades that granted them legal non-citizenship status.
You can call that "enforcing the law" once you admit that the "law" is, at this point, the whim of a despot and his cronies
> Of course, ICE doesn’t just end up targeting, surveilling, harassing, assaulting, detaining, and torturing people who are undocumented immigrants.
Unfortunate timing of this article going live... Some of that seems quaint now.
For those lacking context, ICE shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis today. An agent standing beside a car shot a driver through a car window, killing her and causing the car to lose control and crash into other parked cars.
Allegedly, the agent shot in self defense, but the shot was taken after the car started moving away from the agent.
The woman was identified as a 37 year old US citizen. She was not part of any ICE protest groups.
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On the contrary — the timing is perfect. Yesterday, that statement could've been described as hyperbole or a far-fetched hypothetical. Today, it's a different story.
Right, have to add strait up shooting US citizens to the list :/
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They broadly probably didn't believe grocery prices would "go down", but they were also very angry about inflation. The polling reflected that economic issues topped voter motivations. Add to that the Biden administration hiding his dementia, and perceptions about illegal immigration and crime, and it wouldn't matter who the Republican candidate is.
This was part of a sweeping anti-incumbent sentiment that occurred globally. Kamala did ok with educated white voters, while black, hispanic and asian voters shifted right; do they all just hate brown people? I doubt it.
People have very little reason to be honest during polls, so I find them hard to believe. Polling data led to predictions about Hillary winning in 2016.
Even if there was a slight “shift right” in black and Asian voters, it was still kind of marginal.
According to Pew, about 83% of black voters still voted for Kamala, with 15% voting for Trump, and 60% of Asians voted for Kamala.
I can envision that much internalized racism in either of those groups, but even if that weren’t the case, there are lots of different races and they could convince themselves that “the other ones” are the bad ones, and Trump won’t hurt them. I do not think what you are saying dispels anything I said at all.
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ICE just murdered a US citizen in cold blood and this isn't even the first.
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She is a naturalized citizen and we were very sure to make sure that literally nothing on the paperwork could be considered dishonest.
That said, you're objectively wrong, and if you had read the article in discussion you'd see that. The Trump admin has been detaining natural born citizens, and they've even been given permission to racially profile in the process.
This requires about ten seconds of research to find out, so you are being dishonest by posting stuff like this, either directly or intellectually.
Given the documented behavior of ICE that is clearly false. They arrest people here legally all the time, torturing them.
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That is so obviously false. Who is paying you to spread this tripe?
Any actual Americans should be looking at the events of today in horror.
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There is a lot of internalized racism in Latino communities, so I don't think that that is necessarily in conflict with what I said.
Just because you can find a lot of minorities signing up for ICE jobs doesn't really change anything, even if they were all Hispanic. You can always find examples of people going against their own self interest.
There are black white-nationalists [1] out there. There are women who will openly say that women shouldn't be allowed to vote [2].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Lee_Peterson
[2] https://www.newsweek.com/ann-coulter-reconsiders-womens-righ...
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"I didn't like the DNC so I decided to vote for someone who is an unapologetic racist sack of shit and who bragged about how he'd abuse the presidency to get revenge on his enemies" really doesn't change anything to what I said.
I'm not a huge fan of the DNC either but I think that they're being used as a scapegoat for people not to own their terrible decisions to vote for a moronic demagogue.
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Down that road also is allowing an ill man to stay president for too long.
Aha! I knew something was fishy with them DNC. Those were also the reasons people voted for Hitler, goshdarnit.
Yeah, what? No.
Maybe Democrats didn't vote [for Harris] because of that decision.
But the idea that they instead voted for Trump, or that people who went out of their way to vote for Trump would have voted for the Democrat candidate if they had just "been better than Harris" is so fucking absurd it's actively insulting that you try to claim this.
> Most Americans, in contrast with the DNC platform, think it's gross to select candidates for a job based on their race.
Most Americans think it is gross to select candidates for a job based on how much money they've given you, how willing they are to look the other way for your crimes, or how pretty you think they look.
> hiring based on their accomplishments and skills
That you can look at the Trump administration and say this with a straight face is demonstrative of how ignorant you are.
Most Americans think it’s gross to select minority candidates based on their race. If you’re a lying, corrupt, incompetent, moronic sack of shit, but you’re a white man, they’ll elect you president.
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You can thank the DNC for the appalling choices in federal elections, they decided it was best to mess around with race and gender quotas instead of putting forward genuine candidates.
So instead they voted for Trump?
That's like shooting your own foot off. He's always been this person. He was this person in the 70s, the 80s, the 90s, etc. it's fucking crazy to me that anyone, ever, ever, votes for him. It's really opened my eyes to the realities of a lot of folks out there.
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"Look what you made me do", the motto of voters with no agency.
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Quotas vs Zero Policy Coherence is your takeaway?
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I wish people would be honest with themselves and the rest of us when they go on about ICE.
"Abolish ICE" sounds like you think once you get a few miles past the border, no one should be able to apprehend you. Sounds like you just want open borders.
Even if you think they should use different methods, or be more careful, it's still stupid to say "abolish ICE" or "we should dox and harass all ICE officers and interfere with them." That's just as dumb as saying that because several people die every day from medical malpractice we need to abolish doctors and hospitals.
Borders don't exist if you just let whoever wants to, come and stay forever and do whatever they want. And that's also why legal immigrant citizens moved to the right in recent years. They think it's messed up that they worked hard, paid a ton of money, followed all the rules, meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
> And that's also why legal immigrant citizens moved to the right in recent years. They think it's messed up that they worked hard, paid a ton of money, followed all the rules, meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Yeah, you don't speak for me.
As a legal immigrant whose immigration to the US took several years and cost in the neighborhood of $30,000, I think it's messed up that it costs that amount of money to immigrate here, that pardoned J6 rioters are paid signing bonuses of $50,000 to be "law enforcement" and $5,000 per deportation to run around playing judge, jury, and in this case executioner, answerable to no-one, unbadged, masked and unidentifiable (because "fuck brown people/libs, amirite?"), because they run under a government entity that tells other government entities "fuck you, you can't tell me what to do".
> meanwhile random people from central America just hopped the fence and made up some story to claim asylum -- interesting that they crossed 4 countries before claiming asylum.
Perhaps you should look at whether or not some of those countries have signed treaties on asylum seekers.
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ICE is a corrupt agency hiring the worst of society, whom just murdered a woman for no reason other than to power trip. The state apparatus immediately leapt into action, calling her a terrorist, a criminal, that this action was justified. This is only the most recent of their numerous crimes against the American people.
If you want to believe we need some form of immigration enforcement then fine, but ICE isn't it. ICE needs to go, yesterday. And every single person who joined said agency investigated, jailed and kept away from polite society. This is non-debatable.
ICE didn't exist prior to 2002, neither did CBP in it's current form, and they have done a lousy job of enforcing immigration, either at the border or internally, and primarily now exist as an internal secret police force under the personal control of the president. There is no reforming either of them, and they should both be completely disbanded and replaced with a new immigration enforcement service, ideally not under DHS which should also be disbanded. Everyone who currently works for either ICE and CBP should be fired and they can re-apply to whatever gets created to replace them after a thorough background check, if they don't get jailed.
ICE has only been around for about 20 years. It is not the only mechanism of immigration enforcement. It is, at its very structure, a system of violence.
Abolish ICE. I am 100% literal and serious when I say this. The agency should be dissolved.
On the other hand, abolish ICE
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When the Nazis fell, the occupation forces didn’t say “you can’t abolish the Gestapo, we need police, otherwise it’s just anarchy.” They got rid of the Nazi machine and replaced it.
ICE is rotten to the core. It should be abolished and replaced. Create a new organization with new leadership. Ban anyone from a leadership position in ICE from being employed by the new organization. Maybe allow the rank-and-file to apply, but they have to start fresh and are treated like any other applicant at best.
“Abolish ICE” isn’t about immigration enforcement. It’s about bringing to heel a reckless, out of control, proto secret police. “Abolish ICE” is about immigration enforcement as much as shooting a US citizen in the face is.
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Alright, but what do you think should be done about ICE? Would you change anything?
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> "Abolish ICE"
Currently, no comment anywhere in this discussion mentions abolishing ICE. Was something edited away? This seems like a misdirection. You have picked several inflammatory positions that nobody here is openly advocating.
I am personally concerned with the rule of law and the also extreme polarization of American society.
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Keep in mind that first offense for being in the US illegally is a misdeameanor. I say this as we have a president with 34 felonies and got nothing for it. On top of that, we have ICE tactics like unreasonable searches and seizures, no due process rights, and racial profiling which are all against the law. We know this because US citizens were deported without any due process to make sure they were here illegally.
Casual reminder that the movie The Matrix is older than ICE. The country survived just fine without it before that. Abolishing ICE will not impact us negatively.
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ICE is just the combination of INS and us customs service. Which are from 1933 and 1789.
ICE is the only Federal immigration enforcement agency.
Abolishing ICE is abolishing borders.
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What's the connection between the movie The Matrix and ICE?
Also, did the country truly survive just fine without it before that? Are you familiar with crime stats? Could you share the data on levels of crime carried by illegal immigrants over the years?
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"These laws are supported by the vast majority of voters."
Most voters don't support ICE's gestapo tactics:
"Voters 56 - 39 percent disapprove of the way U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, is doing its job."
"Republicans (77 - 17 percent) approve of the way ICE is doing its job, while Democrats (89 - 9 percent) and independents (64 - 32 percent) disapprove of the way ICE is doing its job."
https://poll.qu.edu/poll-release?releaseid=3926
"New Report: Majority of Americans Disapprove of President Trump’s Immigration Policies"
https://prri.org/press-release/new-report-majority-of-americ...
Interesting.
Wonder what the ratio is.
>"Voters 56 - 39 percent disapprove of the way U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE, is doing its job."
What might be unclear from these numbers: Many disapprove because they believe ICE isn't doing enough.
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From what I've seen immigration laws are nothing more than a pretext. If police were pulling over motorists for speeding and then summarily executing them, it would be idiotic to buy an excuse that they are merely enforcing traffic laws, right?
In the new America, if you died, you were guilty.
> If police were pulling over motorists for speeding and then summarily executing them,
If you haven't noticed, they've been shooting motorists who move their cars in this fashion for years/decades.
Not saying it's right...
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Remember: None of this intrusion would have been necessary if we had simply enforced the border.
Border enforcement is only the excuse to build a paramilitary force akin to the Blackshirts or the Sturmabteilung that will do whatever violence is asked of them.
Dude, every country has borders and most take it seriously. In many countries, such as Poland, they shoot at people crossing the border illegally. A country with no enforced borders is no country at all.
If you want to revise your assessment to include the creation of this problem by having a lax border, I can agree with you somewhat. We should not require border police far away from the borders. But we do require it now, because certain malicious politicians let in a bunch of people illegally.
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Which intrusion is necessary? The intrusion of a bullet into a brain?
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