My question is, why is Israel so good at this? It seems to be at least the 4th cyber power of the world, after the US, Russia and China, if not actually on par or better.
I guess it is because it has been under the threat of larger enemies from its birth, so it must leverage whatever it has to survive. And once you grow an organization and let it loose, you don't have much control over it anymore, and it grows in the wild like a flower.
Don't forget the compounding effect. Say, one country (or city or community) decides to invest their efforts into area X (e.g. clock making in Switzerland). They do it and become better and better. As long as they keep doing that they can become #1 in the world. Regardless of any reasons "why them".
There's no reason Netherlands are better at chip lithography except that they're doing it (Dutch agriculture success can be attributed to good soils/climate/geolocation, but not chips). There's no reason Hollywood is better at filmmaking. Kinda chaos theory -- small changes to initial state leads to huge changes in the later outcomes.
I would like to give a real world example of this too.
If you want to do something artistic or start a business based around Art, Montreal is perfect for it, for the very same reason above.
Initially the govt invested in the arts to preserve French culture, which resulted in a lot of art infrastructure being made, cheap ateliers, fabric suppliers, paint suppliers, &c. Which attracted a lot of artists, which then increases the demand for the art infrastructure, which makes the city easy to make art in.
It makes it stupid easy to make stuff and find the skilled artisans you need to make it. Much easier than any other Canadian city I've lived in.
The Hollywood case has a quirk that is relevent to the extensional content of HN:
West coast filmmakng started in the Bay Area (at the time the largest conurbation in the west) but moved south because of the year 'round weather.
But why the west? Because Edison controlled the filmmaking patents and demanded not just royalties but script oversight as well. By moving west, they could ignore the patents because they were simply too hard to enforce from such a long distance.
So ironically, given how things worked out, IP piracy is at the root of Hollywood.
Unit 8200 [1]. Also, Israel doesn't extradite its own citizens and seems to turn a blind eye to criminals doing nonsense abroad. (Similar to Russia and China.)
That unit is a symptom of their prodigious skill not the cause. Israelis are good at cyber for the same reason the US is good, and the same reason Russia is good. They have an outsized tech industry.
Multiple reasons. America gives Israel special protection for everything they do, Ashkenazi and general Jewish culture values education more than anyone outside of East Asia, and a lot of Soviet Jewish scientists had to work for the military so they came to Israel with cryptography or spy tech experience.
> Ashkenazi and general Jewish culture values education more than anyone
I would recommend you to visit Israel and traditional orthodox jews. Women are serving as "birthing machines", constantly pregnant, and doing all house chores. Education for women is strongly discouraged. Men are "studying", but useless memorizing of old texts.
Normal education in western sense is strongly discouraged in traditional jewish culture!
Traditional Judaism has this really weird (to me, a goy) emphasis on finding loopholes in rules. I always remember these ropes they place around New York City and other places so they can stay "indoors" on, I think it was, the Shabbat, by walking underneath the rope, which is a type of ceiling.
As I understand it, they know God's not stupid and sees right through this sort of thing, but they believe God put rules like "stay indoors on the Shabbat" in place so that He could entertain Himself by watching the creative loopholes humans come up with. Other Shabbat loopholes include putting things on timers the day before, paying a non-Jew to do things that Jews are forbidden to do, or legally transferring ownership of the cupboard full of bread to a non-Jew for the one day a year when Jews aren't allowed to own bread.
And as I understand it, they do this with all things, from a young age. Cultivating this mindset definitely has something to do with their cybersecurity prowess.
Back when I was a tech journalist, back in the 90s I visited Israel once and interviewed a number of their tech companies - admittedly most in the cyber-security space.
They ascribed a lot of the tech innovation to conscription - lots of the founders had learned a lot while in technical posts in the army and put that to use when they left.
Most people have heard of the Mossad, but Unit 8200 of the IDF deserves the same notoriety. The state selects bright young techies and trains them in the absolute state-of-the-art in cybercrime. What could go wrong?
>The unit is composed primarily of 18–21 year olds. As a result of the youth of the soldiers in the unit, and the shortness of their service period, the unit relies on selecting recruits with the ability for rapid adaptation and speedy learning. Afterschool programs for 16–18 year olds, teaching computer coding and hacking skills, also serve as feeder programs for the unit. Former Unit 8200 soldiers have founded and hold top positions in many international IT companies, including in Silicon Valley.
>According to the Director of Military Sciences at the Royal United Services Institute in 2015, "Unit 8200 is probably the foremost technical intelligence agency in the world and stands on a par with the NSA in everything except scale."
It has always been at odds with its neighbors and has persecuted its occupied people, for far too long. It has further facilitated other tyrant governments in the control of their people. The cyberwarfare industry in Israel is directly part of the controlled Defense Industry.
It is not under threat. It has sought to be a formidable threat to everyone.
Israel is definitely a threat to its enemies, but even if you think it's all their fault and they deserve it (I do not think that), it's pretty obvious that Israel also faces many threats.
Because they are arrogant as fuck, barge their way in, shove everyone else out of the way and genuinely believe they are gods chosen people. Are you surprised that a country that regularly spits on Christians and turns cities into concentration camps while running the world's biggest pedo blackmail ring, "right to return for pedos" offer, exploding pagers and spyware operations - happens to be the best?
Because Apple, Intel and Samsung have huge engineering labs there and employ IDF & intelligence people to work in those corporation’s labs. It means they have very detailed knowledge of their products as they have all internal documents and also design software & hardware.
That is why both Apple & Samsung have malware from Israel on their phones. The USA has the NSA building and exploiting products for surveillance and penetration globally.
Netanyahu recently was on a US broadcast, he held up a phone and stated to the reporter interviewing him, that Israel can penetrate any device obtaining it contents and then blackmail or discredit the owner of said device.
The USA now examines phones at airports to see if people are saying things the current administration doesn’t like.
It’s an interesting question. I would also guess that this kind of behaviour would be illegal for private companies in many countries even if you don’t do it domestically.
A few potential possibilities that may or may not be popular here.
- Compulsory military service means the government captures the best and brightest of the country.
- An extraordinarily outsized number of nobel prizes belong to Ashkenazi Jews, and other indicators of intelligence (lack of propensity for violent crime, lifetime earnings, etc) are also quite high for the whole group.
We have had viruses leaked by other countries in the past, with US and Germany coming to mind. If I remember right it was around 2005-2010 when democratic nations officially started to state that they had a right to use malware against criminals and military targets, and from that on it has just kept going. As I recall, Bruce Schneier and FSF made a bit of articles and talks where they tried to get people to understand that once democratic nations starts to use malware offensively they also generally stop protecting their citizens from those security holes.
That we don't hear about it more often seems to me that nations that develop this stuff seem to have gotten better in making malware more precise in what they target and less leaky to the general population, but it could also be that media just don't report about it as much. When a gangs anonymous chat get hacked, or a tor hidden service website get taken down, news seems more interested in talking about the crime than what security vulnerability that the police used.
And also it has help, it is unlikely it acts alone. Example Stuxnet. Israel has the talent so they are a convenient and willing proxy too for getting shady shit done.
To a certain extent, i think its because Israel benefits from being seen as "scary" so there isn't as much pressure to keep this sort of thing on the down low, where in any other countries there is more pressure to keep grey-area stuff like this secret to prevent blowback.
For the same reason Russia is so good at producing mobsters - the government turns a blind eye or even acts as an incubator for scammers. Your question is like asking why the Philippines is so good at sex tourism.
Cope harder. The US guarantees the security of many nations, including many of the failed states in the Middle East. Look at Saudi Arabia, being completely helpless and begging everyone for help with the Houthis.
Not really. Most countries don't face realistic threat of invasion, especially post world war 2.
Over the last 50 years, the probability of anyone invading france, canada, australia, etc has been next to 0. The only countries that really had to worry are the ones that straddle the regions of influence during the cold war.
All normal countries spy on their enemies and all normal countries spy on their friends. All normal countries use cyber-espionage. All normal political groups condemn the actions of groups they oppose and excuse the same actions when committed by those they support.
> Israel is beset on all sides, geographically, digitally and conceptually, by forces hostile to western civilization who want to destroy them at the first opportunity.
It's wild to me that if you wrote a fictional account of a vassal state that was constructed in the center of "hostile" territory, who exercised brutal violence on all it's neighbors, including strictly for the purpose of territorial acquisition, who was funded and supplied implements of war from it's super-state that vastly exceeded it's own production capabilities, which it used to win every conflict it found itself in, and who's officials regularly make the news for calling for outright genocide, everyone would call them the bad guys. Meanwhile in the real world we just call that Israel, and waive vaguely at "complicated politics."
Israel is the one occupying and bullying its neighbors, spying on its "allies", doing air-strikes on neutral countries, attacking US research ships, and performing piracy and kidnapping in international waters.
This, plus all jewish folks I've ever met are naturally smart (not genetically of course, more like societal pressures/expectations/upbringing), hard working like few others, and seem to genuinely veer towards numerical jobs - banking and finance, math, applied math like security, cryptography, trading and so on. Very similar to Iranians to be fair, if US and British MI6 wouldnt be meddling in Iranian internal politics and supporting corrupt shah to steal all the oil cheaply those 2 would be together a superpower on global scale. Israel was very very lucky to not have any oil on their territories.
Plus very much present in US politics and power circles for some reason.
2 examples out of many - my boss is a prime example, every thought somehow infused with money (I work in a bank). My ex gf was exactly the same (she is a successful commodity trader). Just very, very different mindset to the core to say typical european one (I mention folks who are europeans and I've never been to Israel, so extrapolating a bit here).
AdTech engineer here (some 13 years in the industry). A couple of notes:
- The report is highly sensationalist in the "zero-click" aspect. It details to some degree the aspects of distribution and C&C but goes very vague the main point - what was the mechanism that activated that zero malware in a zero-click fashion.
- To the point below that "ad providers should be held responsible." There is no such thing as "ad provider." The AdTech ecosystem is teeming with different niches and business models - see the famous LUMAscapes diagrams: https://lumapartners.com/lumascapes/ . The sheer volume of traffic makes it virtually impossible to vet even a fraction of it. Google has thrown a lot of compute power to pre-scan 3p creatives and even then bad actors can sneak through. Add to this a lot of sophistication on their side (from different landing pages based on the perception of the type of user to farming throw-away advertiser accounts aimed at running just one campaign like that to hijacking legit accounts through sophisticated technical and people engineering means). In the end, politicians full of indignation do what politicians always do - sue or fine Google and call it a victory, whereas the true bad actors just keep going.
Prior to online ads, that is ads that existed on TV, print media, etc, ads were properly vetted. Very few outright scams made it through.
So, it’s definitely possible, especially with human review and static ads. No code. It might not be possible at scale. To me, that’s just not an excuse. If you can’t do something safely at scale, then you shouldn’t. If that means generalized online ads can’t exist then… so be it.
Online ads are definitely still possible. For example, im sure Disney reviews and approves all ads that run on Disney plus. So just do that, and if you can’t do that for e.g. YouTube then dont.
Disney (CTV) doesn't take any open auction demand. All their programmatic demand is deals - meaning that they carefully plan those campaigns with highly reputable agencies and advertisers. There is zero chance for a contentious scammy crypto exchange ad (or even a moderately innocent crypto wallet one) to show on their properties.
Which you can absolutely do, when you are Disney (read, agencies fight to run a campaign with you). When you are, let's say, TechCrunch, the situation changes - you can still strike some deals but a lot of your demand is not the same grade.
You clearly misunderstand the sheer scale of online advertising (compared to linear TV ads, magazine ads etc). There is no chance you can vet every single creative and a landing page (one public number is 30B daily ads just served by Google alone in 2012 - which is probably closer in spirit to the Punic Wars than to 2026).
That's the first point. Now, who should be responsible for getting the ads? The website? That will absolutely kill the monetization model and it is simply unrealistic. Which means, that responsibility now should be pinned on someone else. Who would that be? My point being that no one there has an inherent lawful obligation to provide such vetting, which would be a) costly and b) only applicable to one player (out of many).
And then we get to bad actors. If I were a really motivated bad actor as early as in 2005, I was serving different creatives and different landing pages to different audiences - a perfectly well-behaved ones to Google's crawlers (again, Google does A LOT to fight malware), a questionable quality clicky ones to general audiences and maybe malware-ridden ones to specifically targeted audiences. And you would not be able to catch me in real time - only after the fact, once the campaign was run and someone looked at the evidence (assuming it was collected, which it isn't normally)
If a website serves me malware, the website's owner should be liable to me. They may then be able to sue someone else, in turn. But I chose to interact with them and then they chose to outsource stuff to crooks.
This would be complicated to implement. But it's absolutely doable.
No, it's not. It completely upsets the economics of content management and makes it absolutely impractical for content owners to monetize through ads. No ad revenue would be worth such liability.
Then there are all kinds of fun scenarios - from drive-by malware to landing page malware to malware served after clicking an ad ON A LANDING PAGE. Who would assume responsibility for those?
Bottom line, this is not much different from "regular" crime. It happens. Governments employ police and various deterrents to reduce it. But it doesn't relieve you, the citizen, of responsibility to be mindful and exercise situational awareness.
This argument reminds me of when I dealt with telecommunication providers in a law enforcement context.
Their argument was often that the complexities and volume of data, messages, devices just made it impossible for them to help law enforcement even when justified. Almost as if they were apologetic -- they simply cannot help!
But I was in a room once with a very senior police official, prosecutor and several telco reps when the simple question was asked: why is it not impossible then also to do billing?
Every time the conversation moved away from this point, it was forced to return by the non telco members: they knew it would cost money for the telco to help. And any argument against that was simply foregoing that cost at the expense of the safety or well-being of the public, and was unacceptable.
You may feel (in my example) their are many arguments against state surveillance, but the core truth is that all of these ad providers could indeed have systems that at least attempt to prevent this kind of activity -- it would just reduce profits to do so.
Lastly on the zero click lack of detail: it's kind of irrelevant. The exploit might be complicated, but the vector is clear -- the ad network.
This was my main question as well. I read the report, but I'm still not clear on what the browser vulnerability is. This clearly seems like something browser vendors should be able to patch, correct?
The article does say "Both samples use a COM hijack for persistence, though make use of different DLLs." So does this only affect Windows machines? I didn't have time to read the linked 2021 report on Candiru, so maybe more details are there, but for such a detailed write up it would be helpful if the article was more explicit about which browser vulnerability was exploited. The step-by-step info graphic in the article literally skips over how the infection actually occurs.
It seemed to be that they may not have disclosed everything they discovered, so as not to admit to their own "unauthorized access" to a computer. They stated they got credentials for the cnc server but using it would be unauth access - they implied they didn't.
But they did explain some of the infection nonetheless. A COM exploit on Windows for one.
Browsers are pretty well insulated from arbitrary code execution on the host machine, but I bet android has more vulnerabilities. It wasn't long ago that the webp zero day could pwn anyones device who just looked at an infected webp. (Also Israeli spyware, I believe). Similarily, if Windows apps have ad banners, there could be zero days there as well.
> The report is highly sensationalist in the "zero-click" aspect. It details to some degree the aspects of distribution and C&C but goes very vague the main point - what was the mechanism that activated that zero malware in a zero-click fashion.
It read to me like it was assumed to be using OS/browser/application-level exploits to get further access to target devices. I suspect the CitizenLab report is light on details in particular because they don't actually know them:
> In most cases, the user who sees the ad is not selected for targeting, and the server will not return any JavaScript to be executed.
> A large number of ads placed by Discover-Tech contain a script tag pointing back to what the company refers to as a “NOAS server” (also called a “getAd server”). This tag causes the ad, when rendered, to connect back to Discover-Tech, submit advertising identifiers for the user (either a cookie ID or a mobile ad ID), and automatically execute any JavaScript code returned. The NOAS server decides, apparently based on a combination of the source IP address and the advertising identifiers, whether the target is eligible to receive any JavaScript. If so, then code is returned. If not, a 0-byte response is returned. The NOAS server is a key part of Discover-Tech’s strategy, allowing Discover-Tech to avoid directly sharing malicious code, or even pointers to malicious code, with the companies who serve and display the ads.
I and many people believe that google intentionally chooses to keep harmful ads (deceptive, scamming, or leading to malware) this is because it's often very blatant and often survives being reported
Google is able to provide an AI-generated answer for every query, yet somehow can't use the same AI to check whether the sponsored result is an obvious scam.
Your appeal to authority as an "AdTech Engineer" works against you when support your own industry. You have a conflict of interest. Of course you will try to do damage control and PR.
I don't have any conflict of interest. I'm proud of my work and I think it is great. I personally dislike ads as much as the other guy, but I am pragmatic and I have enough sense to understand that this economics has flourished because it maximizes common good: content creators are incentivised to produce good content and get properly and sustainably rewarded, regular users don't get nickel and dimed every time they load some web page.
To paraphrase Churchill, it is a terrible model but others are worse.
I was surprised by the opening statement too. These guys are the literal scourge of the modern web and he's proud he's been at it for 13 years? Not sure we're on the same page, lol.
Or you can read what they said and see that it's neither. Not sure why credentials would have any bearing on the material of their comment.
They're pointing out the article lacks substance implied by its title, and essentially that it would be nice to see the actual bad actors being prosecuted instead of the middleman. Both positive things to hear for me? Who cares if they work for the industry.
(The former thing is positive because it saves me time reading the article for information that won't be there.)
I think the simple argument here is that the ad ecosystem should be rebuilt on the default assumption being that ad creatives should be an image and a link with no support for arbitrary rich content.
It would break the long tail of the ad ecosystem, but a bunch of people think the tradeoff is fine.
Given how much of online advertising is now in walled gardens rather than display ads, I think this shows this is more doable than the people who are part of the open ecosystem want it to be.
Not sure why this guy is getting a lot of shit. I play at adops, but I haven't done much with it since we set everything up.
Ads drive the internet. Sorry, but it's true. And you, the technical people, have no real idea of the scale. I don't like ads, but was amused when I had to turn off all my blockers to get stuff done. Many people in the adops world dislike ads, but money.
The point he's making is simple: the ad networks are not responsible for the ad payload. And you might argue the point, but your arguments are worthless. Even finding the entity responsible for the payload will be difficult, and they're probably overseas. Are you going to sue them? No, you're not. Can you actually prove damages, even if you did decide to sue? Probably not.
The structure in the article sounds nefarious, but it's literally the adtech stack. The only thing the company must be doing that's abnormal is tracking all the users in one specific IP range and associating it was a company, likely with their emails. I never touched the targeting section of the stack, but I presume that's possible but not "normal."
>The sheer volume of traffic makes it virtually impossible to vet even a fraction of it
No, it doesn't. Your company is too much of a cheap fuck to do it and would rather offload that cost on society, no matter how bad the effects of it is.
>There is no such thing as "ad provider."
Only when it's to your advantage, because you're very happy to refer to yourself as an ad provider in every single marketing piece.
>AdTech engineer here (some 13 years in the industry)
You've made the world miserable for the past 13 years and have the gall to come over and pretend you're a poor innocent little thing who can't do nothing UwU there's just too much how could we be held responsible.
Not to jump on you after everyone else did (although I agree with them), but they didn't give you a solution. The solution is unfortunately for everyone a robust KYC regime. Then the linkages stop being impossible to track and instead become merely burdensome.
Obvious sarcasm aside, I compel you to ponder on this question next time you read "free" content on the web (a newspaper, a dedicated niche site or anything in between).
OK, I read the report, but I'm still not clear on what the browser vulnerability is. This clearly seems like something browser vendors should be able to patch, correct?
The article does say "Both samples use a COM hijack for persistence, though make use of different DLLs." So does this only affect Windows machines? I didn't have time to read the linked 2021 report on Candiru, so maybe more details are there, but for such a detailed write up it would be helpful if the article was more explicit about which browser vulnerability was exploited.
It was a Windows exploit that ran. An adBlocker (funnily enough) would've been an excellent defense against this, given that the exploit ran in JavaScript served in targeted ads.
Though, there is a browser patch for this, don't advertise so much identifiable information that an advertiser can identify a user or their employer. That's the defense, but it'll never happen.
The os exploit is, within this context, after the fact and therefore a non sequitur. You should look up the Project Zero watering hole analysis where they revealed something like 17 0-days being delivered to visitors of one particular site. It's likely that citizen labs only had windows exemplars.
Turns out Google killing Android privacy was completely useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked, but they might use this type of stuff to justify even more closing of supposedly "free" paltforms.
Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
>Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
Totally not useless. It costs a lot more to pay a spyware firm then to have an employee send an email / ask a judge (like that's even necessary).
I feel quite confident of my messages privacy on my Pixel with GrapheneOS given most people I message are on iPhones which are second in security to Pixels running GrapheneOS. Not to mention my threat model doesn't include mercenary spyware, as most people's doesn't.
>Turns out Google killing Android privacy was completely useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked, but they might use this type of stuff to justify even more closing of supposedly "free" paltforms.
If you're talking about the sideloading restrictions those were intended to stop social engineering and scams, not from getting hacked via 0days.
>Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
Source? play services is privileged but not that privileged.
> useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked
From being hacked by others. Google was just trying to protect their property, which is the ability to spy on their users' every move. Google themselves really don't need to "hack" their users for that, they already have all the access and all the data they could ever want. And they also have the ability to brick their users' devices at a moment's notice the same as Apple does.
However, this hack could have happened whether sideloading was allowed or not.
In fact, following the OP's link to https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ..., "the company’s ads were shown on almost 200,000 unique websites and Android/iOS apps in dozens of countries" so it's not just apps but ordinary websites you visit in your android chrome browser.
Yes, Google's move to block people from installing software on their own devices is orthogonal to this. I was merely saying that some measures have massive negative effects and basically irrelevant positive effects in the grand scheme of things.
I'm sure Google's latest push to make it inconvenient to install apps from outside Google's Playstore, where Google charges a 30% commission, is going to solve that.
It is standard that companies within a country act in the interests of its security services. Israel has a lot of ad-tech companies and thus it makes sense that they are roped into serving Israel's security services.
This is the same issue that the US government has with Chinese networking companies, it is too easy for the Chinese government to pressure these Chinese networking companies to put in back doors in the interests of national security. The US likely knows this because it pressures its own companies in similar ways.
Bills like the US CLOUD Act (there are similar ones in the EU and China) force service providers to illegally spy on people overseas (via unauthorized use of anything they can access—consider Microsoft’s Windows backdoors).
I think the only technical solution available to individuals is to boycott non-verifiably e2ee services and corporate operating systems (especially including android).
It's not "illegaly spy", it' just spy. National security laws make sure that these requests are all legal - from that particular country's point of view who is forcing the provider to supply the info... and illegal from all the other country's point of view.
The root of this problem is that nation states have the final say in what they consider legal. But that difficulty is by design and is very difficult to fix.
A few weeks ago the FBI tipped the Argentinian police that some 15 year old kid from buenos aires province had asked chatgpt for ideas to plan a school massacre.
> I think the only technical solution available to individuals is to boycott non-verifiably e2ee services
If the world moved that way overnight, I wonder where digital spy budgets would go. Into traditional techniques, cracking encryption, banning encryption, or a more educated guess?
It's really sad this got taken off the front page (347 points, posted 2 hours ago at the time of this comment). Israel is deeply intertwined with the tech industry and they use tech extensively in extremely hostile ways. It's relevant to this site discussion and the votes demonstrate that. There's no reason to hide the elephant in the room, let's address it, now is the time.
It's kinda funny that a website with an article titled "Online ads weaponised to deliver ‘zero-click’ spyware" immediately loads a splash that asks users with adblock installed to disable it.
The separation between advertising and editorial has never been greater. Brought to you by the marketing wizards who saw you bought a vacuum cleaner on Amazon and concluded you love buying vacuum cleaners so here’s some more.
>During our analysis of the Controlium platform, we observed that the source code mentioned an endpoint called “/csv-download”, which accepted start and end date parameters. When we sent normal HTTP GET requests to this endpoint without any password, special headers, or authentication token, we received logs showing which users had logged in to Controlium, and from which IP addresses.
As much as it sucks for the ecosystem that's built itself up around the world wide web, good ad blockers and fingerprinting protection are as important as firewalls and antiviruses now. There's no more babies in this fetid bathwater.
Obviously not the first time an Israeli tech firm is responsible for these types of exploits, and at this point I'd go so far as saying that any Israeli-based tech company (especially cyber security ones, of which they have a strong industry) should be considered beholden to the government of Israel and hence, probably not trustworthy. How could you be sure whether they will act like a trustworthy independent entity, or compromise your data for the benefit of the state?
This is a weird question and comment because a country doesn't generally make the software. But I suppose they seem to have a lot of influence on the companies. Like surveillance cameras in China.
If I was to say what companies have done the most to take the most privacy from the most people, it would be American big tech like Google and Meta.
There's some okayish software from Israel I can think of, like Zcash.
These Israeli ones are literal criminal companies. What Meta does should be illegal. Both are immoral.
A single spyware against a journalist is much worse than a single Facebook user, but for the total impact on society, they both destroy democracy and human rights significantly.
>I would sooner trust a Chinese company than an Israeli company
As for trust, with privacy I'm a big proponent of avoiding it. Use E2EE or self host if you have to. The country does not matter so much.
That doesn't make any sense. China is a full dictatorship, Israel is not.
Vote me down all you want for saying something about Israel that's not super negative, but it's not a "which country do I dislike most" competition when it comes to facts.
Define "hostile to users" a bit more. Chinese devices recklessly place rando back-doors into things, opening up them up to everyone and their mother. Average consumer router firmware? Compromised. They swallow up any and all information they can get their hands on and operate scam centers where they can utilize the info to blackmail people. Israel seems to have a more targeted approach, albeit there is definitely a blast radius. I'm not sure I can say any one country is worse than the other when it comes to cybersecurity. That includes: USA, Iran, North Korea, China, Israel, Russia etc. They all put consumers at risk; whether it's immediate or down the line when the exploits are revealed and other bad actors (scammers) are able to leverage them. It's a lose-lose for us either way.
Some multinationals have their R&D offices in Israel, there's a lot of pretty good research coming out. Russia would probably be worse in terms of trust and they are openly hostile to the West unlike Israel.
* The state of Israel does authorize spyware sales (eg NSO Group has to get a license from the Ministry of Defense, and Israel's Defense Export Control Agency states that its decisions take national security / foreign policy into account).
* In the case of Pegasus, NYT had reported that Netanyahu intervened to make an exception allowing sale of Pegasus to Saudi Arabia (as political leverage). NSO group execs used Israeli diplomatic passports when they traveled and stayed at the Israeli embassy.
* The government doesn't crack down on these industries, which it would do if it really considered them criminal.
* In this particular case, one of the main targets was Al Jazeera, which seems unlikely that a criminal company would want to target vs. a state actor.
So yea, the government seems to allow these companies to engage in what other countries would consider criminal activity. You can then kind of choose your spot on the spectrum of: "I think this is some broad conspiracy the government purposefully designed for large-scale espionage" or just "The Israeli government thinks it would be good to have great cybersecurity skills in the country so they bend the rules a little".
A good well-researched read is The Palestine Laboratory by Antony Loewenstein.
Jewish and Israeli are not identical. It's possible for someone to have negative views of the country without that being a stance on people who are Jewish.
I'm saying they shouldn't do that, because there is a decent chance those Israeli companies may do things at odds with their customers' best interests (because they cannot or would not say no to a government request).
There is a tinfoil narrative that suggest that entire formats are in bed with intelligence services. It sounds pretty wild, but other zero-click attack vectors have been possible through sabotaging the parsing of file formats. ie. send a message -> hacked. How? the message wasnt even opened. How is, an app like Messenger receives a photo attachment binary, tries to unpack it and in doing so receives an instruction that stops the parser and executes arbitrary instructions.
They use ad network to try to target individual user visiting a page (eg you know your target is a male, 60 years old, living in that area, with a few other checks you can almost uniquely identify your target)
Then the ad network delivers a targeted ad that exploits a vulnerability (eg a broken JPEG decoder that, when sent a bad image, allows to run arbitrary code on your machine), and from there you have access to the computer
It’s to do with hiding malware/spyware in an image which ends up in your cache on device. I can’t go much further into details but all this takes is for you to visit a site that serves it via ad network.
Israel has been known to have some sneaky spyware in the past with Pegasus.
How the ad-based spyware actually worked (from the Citizen Lab and Confiant reports):
- It came in through the front door. Discover-Tech ran its own ad-buying platform and was listed as a "certified" vendor by Google and IAB Europe for six years. Nothing was hacked to get in. It bid in ad auctions like any other buyer.
- The ads looked harmless. Plain banners for games, AliExpress deals and an IP-lookup site. Hidden inside each one was a small script that quietly phoned home when the ad loaded.
- Everyone who saw an ad was profiled. The script collected device details, IP addresses and, on many sites, the publisher's own cookies, sometimes including logged-in session tokens. Cookie-syncing with other ad networks built a huge identity graph.
- Only chosen targets got the payload. A gatekeeper server checked each device's ad ID and IP. Most people got nothing back. A selected target got code that handed them off to spyware maker Candiru, and the code was served only once, which made it very hard for researchers to capture.
- The handoff was built to defeat inspection. Encrypted channels, rotating hosting, anti-bot checks and even a fake "Copyright Google" comment to fool human reviewers.
- It worked. At least 45 devices at Al Jazeera were targeted, and spyware was recovered from an infected machine. Its ads also appeared on networks belonging to NATO, the UN, the European Parliament, the ICC and various defence ministries.
- The scale was huge. Billions of bids and ads in nearly 200,000 apps and websites, including Duolingo, Viber, Yahoo Mail, dating apps and period trackers, yet almost no sign of real advertisers or revenue.
Wait what, so there is no content disarm between companies making ads, and the publishers? They can literally push whatever they want? Wild.
Edit:
the TFA answers: "Advertisers or DSPs may run HTML and JavaScript code when an ad is shown to the user." Its wild! I thought the ads are sanitized, go through a CDR of sorts, and whatever javascript is permitted is authored by ad networks, not the buyers. Sheesh. Thats just RCE.
"Researchers also recommend that users at high risk of targeting use ad blockers, disable ad tracking, and regularly reset mobile ad IDs.". Not "recommend". Everyone must use uBlock Origin or at least some type of ad blocker in every device.
Then also mandatory pi-hole on every house.
Even if you are used by Windows OS, you must use an adblocker. Even if you use Chrome. On every browser.
Internet without ublock origin looks and feels horrible, something about insulting basic human decency with o slaught of ads desperately taking so much space.
Apps should be required to disclose every single ad network they use as part of their app store disclosures. I want a lot more transparency as to where the ads are coming from inside the app itself.
I've witnessed consumer apps throwing quite heinous malware/sketchware advertisements and watched the banners rotate between 4-5 different ad vendors to keep things hot and spicy.
The incentives are lopsided, there’s so much money to be made by selling access to you and your devices, and controlling you, than just taking your money.
Indeed, it seems there are some externalities that a 100% free market doesn’t protect against for which regulation is probably the best tool.
A regulation here that applies to all app stores is even business friendly as an appstore which wanted to do this already wouldn’t be punished by trying to do this on their own, for the reasons you mentioned.
If only! I think we can no longer afford to ignore all these security threats and should make online advertising wholesale illegal. But I won't hold my breath.
The ads are getting insane, they're trying to fill every bit of space you can look with ads. You go to a restaurant there's ads on your placemat. You go to the grocery store there's ads in your cart. They put chargers in the parking lot so now there's ads out there.
Streaming services used to be bad enough with ads in the shows, now they put an ad on the screen when you pause it. Peacock just started putting ads in the login screen.
If we don't stop this, pretty soon they're going to have ads in the stars as satellite constellations arrange themselves to sell you Twitter subscriptions. They're not going to stop even when there's an ad no matter where you look.
Ads providers should be held responsible for delivering malware. All the tracking (that includes fingerprinting for clients that do not want to be tracked) should also be illegal.
How is this acceptable for society goes beyond me. And then corporations blame individuals when they get scammed. It is your fault that we have all your information and leak it everywhere, when it is not just directly sold.
And add jail time to fines. Fines means nothing for the rich.
I think it would be nice for them to be held accountable but I get the feeling this is part of a wider nation state intelligence apparatus and I doubt that they will hold themselves accountable.
So you search for company A wanting to buy their product. You check out. Basically every setup I've audited has every tracking product ever for everything.
So you buy X, and the company sends that purchase event with your information to Meta, Google, TikTok, Applovin, Klaviyo, and 10 others.
This idea is hopelessly entrenched in every marketing department, who has leadership's ear: We HAVE to send EVERYTHING to EVERYONE otherwise our ROAS will go DOWN!
Every platform works this way, they're all set up to put giant red banners on your marketer's dashboards
"You could be getting 50% better results if you sent <customer_2nd_grade_report_card>!"
nah, you'll never get there that way. Even if there was willpower to do it legislating these things is too hard.
What we need is some greedy lawyers and civil liability. Find a campaign that infected enough individuals, fire up a class-action lawsuit against the website on which the ads where actually shown (not the ad provider).
If they win the landscape will change. It would set a precedent for civil liability for infecting your users even when it's not your content directly. That would likely spook the shit out of the market, security becomes a feature.
Why the website instead of the ad provider? The website didn't server the ad. The ad provider did and should be the responsible part to ensure what it provides is not malicious.
Attacking a single website does nothing. If you bankrupt the site, there are millions more sites. If you attack the ad provider, bankrupting it, and shutting it down, millions of sites are now protected.
You're wrong on legislating these things. If the ad network is forced into KYC for their ad distributions and they are excluded from safe harbor, like a TV network would be, then I guarantee those ads cease to exist.
This mentality of "it's to hard" doesn't get things done.
I do agree that some greedy lawyers and civil liability would solve this, but that's not a long term solution at all.
> What we need is some greedy lawyers and civil liability. Find a campaign that infected enough individuals, fire up a class-action lawsuit against the website on which the ads where actually shown (not the ad provider).
This is not the problem. You visiting any website can lead to your computer running the same code.
The main problem is that the exploits from js to code execution or data exfil are possible in the first place. The issue is that you have JS, which is generally pretty isolated, able to talk to bundled libraries (like libwebrtc), which often contain the exploits and share the same memory space. There needs to be a intermediate layer between JS talking to any such library, like process isolation with IPC for communication.
Sure, but there's a big difference between going to a sketchy, malicious site vs a reputable site that does serve ads and now being at the mercy of any arbitrary crap in the ad you didn't choose to see
If such a thing were passed, it can't apply retroactively. But yes, google people would go to jail when they inevitably flout it as they are accustomed to doing. We should make this happen.
People in the US have a unique window of opportunity starting TODAY (Oct 2026) in many places with early voting. I implore everyone who is able to vote in the midterms to do so.
> And add jail time to fines. Fines means nothing for the rich.
This, pretty much. Money removes consequence form your actions. If every time you screwed up, instead of being fined you had to wear a silly hat, go on TV and apologize, or get some time behind bars, even if it were 1 or 2 days it would be very effective.
Not quite. Most people in society are completely oblivious to this happening. And their lack of awareness is why the exploiters don't face more public opposition.
People have disliked ads since ads existed. Carl Sagan's 1985 book Contact includes a brazillionaire S.R. Hadden who made his fortune by inventing an adblocker for television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_(novel)
The FBI has previously recommended running adblockers as a method to prevent malware and especially scamming. Nobody cares much.
It’s a low-hanging fruit that has high value, particularly for less savvy internet users. Scams have always been the biggest threat. I’d say the majority of internet ads are scams, and the platforms often don’t make it clear what is or is not an ad.
But, we always knew the risk of malware was there. In the modern age, ads are basically never delivered as static assets. They’re delivered as small applications, with code. So, we’re relying on our sandboxing mechanics to work perfectly, and predictably they don’t. The solution is to block the code altogether; to block ads.
Aren't earliest government backed recommendations, to block all ads for security reasons, something like 20 years old? For example, this one: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/Capaci...
is from 2013. I am sure there were earlier I just can't find them.
It seems to be app-based. So DNS blocking could work; it's easily circumvented by the platforms, but it's rarely circumvented. like mobile games with those ads.
You should threat model, but if you want to maximally protect yourself, use Vanadium or Brave Browser and GrapheneOS and no privacy invasive apps.
This was my first question as well. There’s a big gap between “ad network delivers JS” and a zero-click browser exploit. CitizenLab has done some great research including OSINT on the former, but there’s a conspicuous gap between it and the DLL ending up on the victim’s machine.
Someone should look at mergers of large digital advertising companies after Trump's most recent election... And then look at the timing of it. The countries involved happened to be Israeli and have many employees based out of Argentina. Which is crazy since the United States, Israel and Argentina happened to become extremely close after that election cycle...
I wonder how we're going to unwind this mess in the upcoming years. It seems as if there was a concerted effort to plan this all out before Trump got elected, and then everything fell into place. They obviously have a post Trump plan ready to go. I partially blame the left(really the moderates) in the U.S. For being so unbelievably complacent that it led us to this mess. I just wonder how we're going to unwind this. Nothing lasts forever, but the transition in between states always tends to be disrupting.
Awful lot of words here, but not much explanation of the actual capabilities of the "zero-click spyware". Tacking on the phrase "zero-click" suggests some kind of browser exploit, but it seems like this is just the same sort of thing as tracking cookies, third-party telemetry etc.
and they’re just as troublesome as they were before,
to the degree they’re provably being used to decide who to send malicious payloads to…
Zero-click simply highlights if the user needs to actively interact with an element to get a malicious payload - or not.
This did get me interested in the specifics of the payload, though:
“It maintains persistence via COM hijacking by overwriting a legitimate COM class registry key’s DLL path with a first-stage DLL dropped in C:\Windows\system32\IME\, and it stores encrypted second-stage payloads in the configuration directory. A signed third-party driver (physmem.sys) enables kernel-level memory access and API call proxying to avoid detection. To preserve system stability, DevilsTongue reinjects the original COM DLL during hijacking, disguising this action through shellcode manipulation of the LoadLibraryExW return value. All additional payloads are decrypted and executed only in memory, allowing the malware to steal credentials from LSASS and browsers, access Signal messages, and use browser cookies to impersonate victims on platforms like Facebook, Gmail, and VK. The malware’s use of scrubbed metadata, encryption, and unique hashes for each file further complicates detection and analysis.”
Yes, in fact I skipped to that section. It describes targeting, and then a vague mention of ad impressions leading to "connections" to a C2 server (but the simple fact of contacting a domain doesn't establish C2; anyone can send an AJAX request anywhere). Then they describe a "fingerprint" of servers which appears to consist of... HTTP responses with several blank fields and a claim of running on Apache. Then they say that they found a compromised DLL, which they attribute to the ads based on the DLL hard-coding some domains related to the ad campaign.
But there is nothing explaining how the DLL becomes zero-click compromised by the ad.
If someone you care about doesn't run an ad blocker, it's time to change that. They don't even have to be gullible and likely to click on things they shouldn't. Zero click is zero click. Don't just tell them they should. They likely won't. Go with them to their computer and install an ad blocker for them on the spot. It's time.
Maybe Google, Yandex, etc. will decide this is the last straw and finally get serious about filtering malicious ads out of their services. Past history indicates they won't. I feel sorry for anyone who depends on ad revenue, but not sorry enough to expose people I care about to this crap.
So reading the article, it feels a bit confusing what zero click exploit they are talking about. It sounds like they are talking about CVE-2021-21166, but if they really are talking about an exploit from 5 years ago, i feel like their intro paragraph is rather misleading.
Online ad networks are zero-click spyware and their entire purpose is to maniputate the user against his own interests. The only reasonable thing to do is to block them entirely and for everyone.
Targets could have been identified using pretty basic advertising and marketing techniques. Bid requests broadcast IP, device details, and ad IDs to every bidder. Intersecting topic audiences across a few months of Al Jazeera stories could narrow that audience to a few individuals. The ad ecosystem already does set-intersection de-anonymization to identify interests and profile customers.
The article contains no information on which browsers are impacted, what exploit is being used, if it has been patched, etc? Does anyone know more about how this ad network is exploiting browsers to install spyware on the users machine?
Buried in the Citizenlab report are links to CVEs from Windows and Chrome that the report says were exploited. These CVE's date back to the early 20's and have been patched.
As I skimmed the CitizenLab report, it was particularly interesting to see the history of the company and how they may have been acquired specifically to use as a covert operation.
How paranoid should one be of, say for example, a wasm vulnerability exploited on zero day by a bad JS ad?
I am scared for my parents to get exposed to this kind of thing from bad ad network actors. Does anyone have some practical concrete recommendations they took? Like I don't think they can install ublock origin and whitelist sites on demand in Firefox they way I do.
The only practical thing right now is to make sure they don't have the money on device and have 2 fac for email and bank accounts. But every now and then there are phishing attamepts that they could fall prey to.
Install uBlock Origin and don't whitelist any sites. The default filter lists break almost nothing, only once you start including the "annoyances" lists etc. do you start running into significant breakage.
Without an ad blocker, they will be exposed to such an amount of social engineering (ranging from dropshipping sites, to subscription scams, to scam shops that don't ship at all but steal your CC data, to fake sites for government services, to attempts to trick you into installing malware) that you can't expect them to resist it. If installing uBO seems hard, resisting this or cleaning up the consequences is harder.
The amount of "hey have you heard of this great new product I saw" <photo of a handwritten note of the content of a scam site> went down from weekly to near zero once I got a relative to use an ad blocking browser.
> I am scared for my parents to get exposed to this kind of thing
It's tough. One option is to hope/assume that exploits only compromise user accounts rather than the whole computer.
In that case you can blacklist the banking website from the day-to-day browser as a reminder to switch to the other account, and configure the other account's browser so that it can do little else.
The lesson from story: Install adblockers on all your devices
Given whom did this attack, I would not be surprised if it was used as intel for strikes on journalists.
There are reliable sources from inside the Israeli Intelligence apparatus that have stated on record that decisions were made to sacrifice 500+ innocent civilians to carry out a strike on one human target. I bet such a strike would be more likely if spyware indicated that one of the innocents was an "enemy" journalist.
Very weird to me that they never recommend that the industry could stop adding javascript to their website. They recommend millions of layer of "security" but never recommend the end of javascript. This is outrageous to me. Disable javascript!!!
I would be interested in knowing which devices were (or still are) vulnerable to these zero click exploits. And how those exploits (used to) work, specifically.
For as clever as some of the spy techniques are, they sure don't seem to be very good on opsec.
> We found two world-readable Apache Druid instances running on Discover-Tech’s website mtrtb[.]com. The druid.mtrtb[.]com endpoint contains bidding data for Discover-Tech’s MyDSP platform
Nope. If the messenger has a history of being unreliable, it's valid to call him out. I'm glad you read a TikTok guide on fallacies, but this isn't one of them.
> Reuters has reported that billions of dollars’ worth of Meta’s ad revenue comes from ads for scams, illegal gambling, pornography and other banned content. In the US, ICE and other government agencies have bought software that uses ad tech data to track people’s movements.
I don't know if an ad blocker protects against Discover-Tech’s Controlium but in general you'd be a fool to allow ads in your browser in at this point. The ad industry is pretty shady all round.
For years there was a strong segment of HN commenters who would come on and declare a moral imperative for not using ad blockers and looking at every ad you could in order to support a website.
One must wonder how many were genuine vs an influence op.
I doubt it's that easy to click on a link and install malware without the user knowing. Most browsers are highly secure and finding a zero day isn't that easy these days because both sides use A.I. to find vulnerabilities and to secure against them.
It’s not “easy”, it requires a complex infrastructure of exploit devs (who can sell their findings for millions in some cases) and the companies who package these exploits together with implants and sell them.
Incredible that they don't clearly say what the exploit is and what OS/hardware/apps is/are vulnerable. Still, quite a lot of interesting info about the modern ad delivery networks sewer system...
Taboola ads is zero click garbage which makes ones eyes bleed. This stuff is just a tad more sinister or a step further than that but along the same lines, more or less.
Once again proving that ads are an unacceptable security threat. All those sites now deploying ad-blocker blockers should assume liability for whatever ad software they force their readers to run.
All ads should have to appear in an <advertisement> node, and users should have the option of disabling javascript within an advertisement. Make it the fucking law.
Back in 2012 The Jester claimed he used targeted spyware to target Mir Islam or Josh the God leader of UGNazi which according to him led to his arrest, though law enforcement never confirmed it.
Interestingly enough they have his laptop he used for a while in a museum.
Why would anyone trust any Israeli cybersecurity firm at this point? Any website or service knowingly utilizing their services is a huge risk. They're already deeply embedded in federal and local governments so there is a strong sense of doom.
Someone should look at mergers of large digital advertising companies after Trump's most recent election... And then look at the timing of it. The countries involved happened to be Israeli and have many employees based out of Argentina. Which is crazy since the United States, Israel and Argentina happened to become extremely close after that election cycle...
The CTO happens to have worked for Radware
> Related work by the research group Confiant also suggests that Discover-Tech’s ads have been shown to users of the networks of government entities in Europe and the US, as well as the UN, Nato, the international criminal court and the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Yet we don't sanction Israel nor hold them accountable in any way. Of course they're spying on members of the UN and ICC, of course. Israel is at war with the entire world right now, and my politicians continue to support them. Thankfully many people have woken up, but the situation is dire.
Based on responses from roughly 46,700 people assessing 129 countries, Israel ranked as the most negatively perceived country worldwide, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan, and Iran. The most positively viewed were Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, and Italy.
That conflates the state with a business headquartered in it. It begs the question of what the sanctions would be for: is the argument that this firm is an arm of Israel, that Israel turns a blind eye to abusive businesses, or something else?
Yes, obviously the state and this company are the same thing. Why would a private company spy on the ICC and the UN? I’m sure there are plenty of 8200 people involved.
My Democratic Rep (who is a Zionist) voted with the Republican Party to financially sanction and impose visa restrictions on members of the International Criminal Court for issuing an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, so the ICC could hold Netanyahu for trial.
I will never vote for this particular (D) candidate again. Fortunately, the (L) candidate seems reasonable.
If indeed your representatives support Israel or the genocide in Gaza, I urge you to consider voting 3rd party. In two-party elections, candidates mostly just try to be a little better than their opponent. What forces them to do more isn’t a third party actually winning. It’s a real risk that enough fed-up voters will go third-party and cost them the election. This is basic game theory optimization.
Oh darn, maybe we should just ban the entire online advertising industry. Gosh, what value we'd lose if we couldn't have our personalized attention destroying glitter boxes.
My opinion on web infra patronage has shifted over time, I used to generally accept that for small websites to exist advertising was a necessary evil since they were too niche to have a real revenue source. Then I ran one and I realized that there's far more labor costs involved in maintaining a site than infra costs and that for niche hobbies and communities ten bucks can just find its way into a central pot every month to keep the lights on by those with a bit more to spare.
I am now of the opinion that web communities can survive in the same way arts and other liberal pursuits have always survived. People with a bit more to spare put more into the pot to create the community they want to exist in and "freeloaders" is an alien concept to the genuinely interested since that money is being spent to create a place where meeting can take place without a financial requirement.
>I am now of the opinion that web communities can survive in the same way arts and other liberal pursuits have always survived.
And the only 'users' of these websites will be rich people? Because the moment a paywall goes up on a website it becomes unusable for a large portion of the planet.
Not at all, a few people pay to make it available as a service to others because they want it to exist. It's like this website - there are no (traditional) ads and most of us have paid nothing to use it. A small expenditure creates a good community for technical discussion that the hosts value existing and for being able to occasionally promote their ventures on.
Were the hypothetical "paywalls everywhere" scenario to play out, sites would quickly consolidate their subscriptions. So a subscription to something like Engadget would get you access to a wide swath of sites, making the paywall a lot more palatable overall. This would be the inevitable outcome because it would be the most natural way for sites to compete with other sites.
Cool, cool… the “pot of money” model you’re proposing is possible right now, yet is used essentially nowhere outside of substack writers. That’s a very clear signal.
If you ban online advertising, every publisher you know and like will either exit the market or need to use a paywall (which are famously… popular and successful for niche publishers? No.)
You can call online advertising loathsome if you want (indeed a lot of it sucks - no argument!) but it pays for content that everyone consumes. (Unless you only use HN, which is 99% of the time a collection of links to other sites with ads or paywalls or both.)
Regulate online advertising - fine. But “banning” it (what would that even involve?) is not a serious suggestion.
Tons of webforums have donation links or premium memberships. People will pay for their name to be displayed in a different color and basically nothing else, and it's not super hard if you have a few hundred users to pay for servers this way.
It's a fine model so long as you don't need it to scale to one million active users.
I'm still of the opinion that the end of online advertising would be a significant net benefit to society, if for no other reason then the incentives to keep you interacting with a social network / website / app / media / etc. fade away.
> If you ban online advertising, every publisher you know and like will either exit the market or need to use a paywall (which are famously… popular and successful for niche publishers? No.)
(This comment must have been posted in one of the other threads before we merged them hither. I don't recall which one, but the other links are in the toptext.)
What can we expect from the most unpopular country in the world:
Based on responses from roughly 46,700 people assessing 129 countries, X ranked as the most negatively perceived country worldwide, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan, and Iran. The most positively viewed were Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, and Italy.
I'm of the belief that when that happens, it is state-sponsored bots messing with the voting. Sometimes when I make a comment on political matters, it gets waves of upvotes and downvotes.
Thanks by the way for introducing me to that graph. I didn't know that anyone collected that kind of stuff.
Why do some of the most evil tech companies, especially ones that use exploits and zero-days as part of their business model, disproportionately originate from the same small (population-wise) country? The company from the article, all the other examples everyone here lists, Candiru, NSO... All Israeli.
One factor is that Israel generally refuses to extradite their citizens who are accused of crimes in foreign countries. So they effectively operate with a certain level of legal immunity.
It isn't all Israel. North Korea, Russia, and Iran have long been known to be where most cyber crime comes from. Israel is there, but they are an also-ran compared to the others. (but Israel does tend to have more sophisticated attacks). The US also has done a large share, but mostly that is government attacks on other governments (that we know of).
Israel has a lot of enemies that going against them. Which is why they have incentive to be good at this - to attack back. Corporate attempts are just ways to make money.
I'm going to stay out of the political issue of what any actor should do.
Their military is very good at cyber-warfare. The gap has narrowed in the last decade, but before that there wasn't even a distant second, maybe Russia. People serve in those units, acquire very useful and specific skills, then start companies that offer commercial variants of cyber-warfare, or become subcontractors for other governments.
Because they are the best at spying in the world by far, and are willing to splash the cash. They're what Silicon Valley would have been if it kept doing government contracts instead of just selling ads.
If Mossad is willing to give you a hundred million to make your startup a spyware company, you're obviously going to agree.
The same reason why many great tech companies originate from Israel. That's why Nvidia is the largest private employer in Israel. Why Apple's CTO is from Israel.
But something tells me that the way you framed your question, is not about the companies and more about you and how you view Israel.
It was so successful that IronSource, one of those companies, ended up merging with Unity and I think they got like 25% of the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronSource
That explains a lot. You're basically just fishing for downloads in your target networks. You don't actually care if anyone clicks the ads in the installers, the sole purpose of the adware is to get arbitrary software running alongside the installer, so that you can compromise their machine.
Which is surprising that these organizations have trust; like our employers probably wouldn't be comfortable shipping all their code to / embedding agents from cybersecurity firms in Russia
> a haven for American pedophiles/criminals who end up fleeing the country
Only Jewish pedophiles & criminals.
Israel will not let in random non-Jewish criminals to flee prosecution, only those who are provably Jewish are granted citizenship and non-extradition.
Guess where the company big AI labs are using for security sandbox is from? The one that was involved in both big hacking scandals from "rogue agents" by OpenAI and Anthropic?
HN made a special carve out to the rules it had in place when russia/Ukraine escalated for IP discussions and changed moderating behavior from past conflict discussions.
You may not have been following the news lately (or historically), but Arab countries have been bombing each other over the past 6 months without any involvement of Israel. Not to mention the historical in-killing in Syria and many other such conflicts in the Middle East that have nothing to do with Israel.
Probably happens with Russia, US, etc as well, but the "hasbara" campaigns through the years have the effect of making people assume the mossad is all powerful etc etc. You inspire fear on your enemies, but also your friends.
edit: and I have been hasbar'd now for simply stating the fact that making people fear you instead of love you has consequences. oh well.
My question is, why is Israel so good at this? It seems to be at least the 4th cyber power of the world, after the US, Russia and China, if not actually on par or better.
I guess it is because it has been under the threat of larger enemies from its birth, so it must leverage whatever it has to survive. And once you grow an organization and let it loose, you don't have much control over it anymore, and it grows in the wild like a flower.
Don't forget the compounding effect. Say, one country (or city or community) decides to invest their efforts into area X (e.g. clock making in Switzerland). They do it and become better and better. As long as they keep doing that they can become #1 in the world. Regardless of any reasons "why them".
There's no reason Netherlands are better at chip lithography except that they're doing it (Dutch agriculture success can be attributed to good soils/climate/geolocation, but not chips). There's no reason Hollywood is better at filmmaking. Kinda chaos theory -- small changes to initial state leads to huge changes in the later outcomes.
I would like to give a real world example of this too.
If you want to do something artistic or start a business based around Art, Montreal is perfect for it, for the very same reason above.
Initially the govt invested in the arts to preserve French culture, which resulted in a lot of art infrastructure being made, cheap ateliers, fabric suppliers, paint suppliers, &c. Which attracted a lot of artists, which then increases the demand for the art infrastructure, which makes the city easy to make art in.
It makes it stupid easy to make stuff and find the skilled artisans you need to make it. Much easier than any other Canadian city I've lived in.
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The Hollywood case has a quirk that is relevent to the extensional content of HN:
West coast filmmakng started in the Bay Area (at the time the largest conurbation in the west) but moved south because of the year 'round weather.
But why the west? Because Edison controlled the filmmaking patents and demanded not just royalties but script oversight as well. By moving west, they could ignore the patents because they were simply too hard to enforce from such a long distance.
So ironically, given how things worked out, IP piracy is at the root of Hollywood.
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Regarding the Netherlands, it doesn't hurt that TSMC happened to be cofounded by the same Dutch company that spun out ASML
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Also, how it stops to be. Specializations like that get disrupted if there's an easier way to make money (aka Resource curse, aka Dutch Disease [1]).
Same thing with Israel -- if they had some easier way to make moneys they would go for it. But constant demand from their defense kept if afloat.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse
> why is Israel so good at this?
Unit 8200 [1]. Also, Israel doesn't extradite its own citizens and seems to turn a blind eye to criminals doing nonsense abroad. (Similar to Russia and China.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_8200
That unit is a symptom of their prodigious skill not the cause. Israelis are good at cyber for the same reason the US is good, and the same reason Russia is good. They have an outsized tech industry.
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Multiple reasons. America gives Israel special protection for everything they do, Ashkenazi and general Jewish culture values education more than anyone outside of East Asia, and a lot of Soviet Jewish scientists had to work for the military so they came to Israel with cryptography or spy tech experience.
> Ashkenazi and general Jewish culture values education more than anyone
I would recommend you to visit Israel and traditional orthodox jews. Women are serving as "birthing machines", constantly pregnant, and doing all house chores. Education for women is strongly discouraged. Men are "studying", but useless memorizing of old texts.
Normal education in western sense is strongly discouraged in traditional jewish culture!
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Traditional Judaism has this really weird (to me, a goy) emphasis on finding loopholes in rules. I always remember these ropes they place around New York City and other places so they can stay "indoors" on, I think it was, the Shabbat, by walking underneath the rope, which is a type of ceiling.
As I understand it, they know God's not stupid and sees right through this sort of thing, but they believe God put rules like "stay indoors on the Shabbat" in place so that He could entertain Himself by watching the creative loopholes humans come up with. Other Shabbat loopholes include putting things on timers the day before, paying a non-Jew to do things that Jews are forbidden to do, or legally transferring ownership of the cupboard full of bread to a non-Jew for the one day a year when Jews aren't allowed to own bread.
And as I understand it, they do this with all things, from a young age. Cultivating this mindset definitely has something to do with their cybersecurity prowess.
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Back when I was a tech journalist, back in the 90s I visited Israel once and interviewed a number of their tech companies - admittedly most in the cyber-security space.
They ascribed a lot of the tech innovation to conscription - lots of the founders had learned a lot while in technical posts in the army and put that to use when they left.
Most people have heard of the Mossad, but Unit 8200 of the IDF deserves the same notoriety. The state selects bright young techies and trains them in the absolute state-of-the-art in cybercrime. What could go wrong?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_8200
>The unit is composed primarily of 18–21 year olds. As a result of the youth of the soldiers in the unit, and the shortness of their service period, the unit relies on selecting recruits with the ability for rapid adaptation and speedy learning. Afterschool programs for 16–18 year olds, teaching computer coding and hacking skills, also serve as feeder programs for the unit. Former Unit 8200 soldiers have founded and hold top positions in many international IT companies, including in Silicon Valley.
>According to the Director of Military Sciences at the Royal United Services Institute in 2015, "Unit 8200 is probably the foremost technical intelligence agency in the world and stands on a par with the NSA in everything except scale."
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> it has been under the threat of larger enemies
It has always been at odds with its neighbors and has persecuted its occupied people, for far too long. It has further facilitated other tyrant governments in the control of their people. The cyberwarfare industry in Israel is directly part of the controlled Defense Industry.
It is not under threat. It has sought to be a formidable threat to everyone.
Israel is definitely a threat to its enemies, but even if you think it's all their fault and they deserve it (I do not think that), it's pretty obvious that Israel also faces many threats.
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Because they are arrogant as fuck, barge their way in, shove everyone else out of the way and genuinely believe they are gods chosen people. Are you surprised that a country that regularly spits on Christians and turns cities into concentration camps while running the world's biggest pedo blackmail ring, "right to return for pedos" offer, exploding pagers and spyware operations - happens to be the best?
Because Apple, Intel and Samsung have huge engineering labs there and employ IDF & intelligence people to work in those corporation’s labs. It means they have very detailed knowledge of their products as they have all internal documents and also design software & hardware.
That is why both Apple & Samsung have malware from Israel on their phones. The USA has the NSA building and exploiting products for surveillance and penetration globally.
Netanyahu recently was on a US broadcast, he held up a phone and stated to the reporter interviewing him, that Israel can penetrate any device obtaining it contents and then blackmail or discredit the owner of said device.
The USA now examines phones at airports to see if people are saying things the current administration doesn’t like.
It’s an interesting question. I would also guess that this kind of behaviour would be illegal for private companies in many countries even if you don’t do it domestically.
A few potential possibilities that may or may not be popular here.
- Compulsory military service means the government captures the best and brightest of the country.
- An extraordinarily outsized number of nobel prizes belong to Ashkenazi Jews, and other indicators of intelligence (lack of propensity for violent crime, lifetime earnings, etc) are also quite high for the whole group.
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They aren’t the best because they are identified so often. They are the most brazen and reckless.
The wig fallacy is in full effect here.
Look to the Netherlands, UK, Scandinavia and others for governments who aren’t getting caught doing this.
We have had viruses leaked by other countries in the past, with US and Germany coming to mind. If I remember right it was around 2005-2010 when democratic nations officially started to state that they had a right to use malware against criminals and military targets, and from that on it has just kept going. As I recall, Bruce Schneier and FSF made a bit of articles and talks where they tried to get people to understand that once democratic nations starts to use malware offensively they also generally stop protecting their citizens from those security holes.
That we don't hear about it more often seems to me that nations that develop this stuff seem to have gotten better in making malware more precise in what they target and less leaky to the general population, but it could also be that media just don't report about it as much. When a gangs anonymous chat get hacked, or a tor hidden service website get taken down, news seems more interested in talking about the crime than what security vulnerability that the police used.
> My question is, why is Israel so good at this?
American money, tech and intel, plus they are vastly overstaffed for the size of territory they want to defend.
Country that prizes education and is constantly under threat. Plus, most folks do serious time in the army and only after that do they go to college.
And also it has help, it is unlikely it acts alone. Example Stuxnet. Israel has the talent so they are a convenient and willing proxy too for getting shady shit done.
To a certain extent, i think its because Israel benefits from being seen as "scary" so there isn't as much pressure to keep this sort of thing on the down low, where in any other countries there is more pressure to keep grey-area stuff like this secret to prevent blowback.
Putting it amongst that cohort and suggesting it's a flower is definitely one reading I guess.
Integrated selection pipeline spanning 15 years from age 4 up until age 18.
Given the number of enemies Israel has, it has to be prudent and explore every opportunity it has. One strategic mistake could be fatal.
For the same reason Russia is so good at producing mobsters - the government turns a blind eye or even acts as an incubator for scammers. Your question is like asking why the Philippines is so good at sex tourism.
You conclude that they’re good at it because they keep getting caught? Fascinating.
The US, to its eternal shame, guarantees their security.
Israel is not particularly skillful: they're a little bully getting in some punches while a big bully holds back the rescuers. Ooh, tough guy!
Cope harder. The US guarantees the security of many nations, including many of the failed states in the Middle East. Look at Saudi Arabia, being completely helpless and begging everyone for help with the Houthis.
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>Israel is not particularly skillful
"The people I don't like are always unskilled." You shouldn't hate your enemies; it affects your judgement.
> has been under the threat of larger enemies from its birth
As everybody else in the planet. Israel is not special in that sense.
Not really. Most countries don't face realistic threat of invasion, especially post world war 2.
Over the last 50 years, the probability of anyone invading france, canada, australia, etc has been next to 0. The only countries that really had to worry are the ones that straddle the regions of influence during the cold war.
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Fewer internal barriers.
“Threat of larger enemies” yeah that’s the direction the threat goes.
They get away with genocide, it's no wonder that they can get away with this.
Because it's the only country allowed get away with stuff that would be an international scandal if a normal country did it.
> an international scandal if a normal country did it
Russia, China and America each have notable offensive cyberwarfare capabilities. (Pyongyang is a nuclear-armed cybercrime ring at this point.)
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Just like frontier models get away with things no humans would.
More specifically, it can steal military and tech secrets from the USA and keep getting invited back. Total impunity.
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Did we forget about Snowden?
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All normal countries spy on their enemies and all normal countries spy on their friends. All normal countries use cyber-espionage. All normal political groups condemn the actions of groups they oppose and excuse the same actions when committed by those they support.
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> Israel is beset on all sides, geographically, digitally and conceptually, by forces hostile to western civilization who want to destroy them at the first opportunity.
Could you name those forces?
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It's wild to me that if you wrote a fictional account of a vassal state that was constructed in the center of "hostile" territory, who exercised brutal violence on all it's neighbors, including strictly for the purpose of territorial acquisition, who was funded and supplied implements of war from it's super-state that vastly exceeded it's own production capabilities, which it used to win every conflict it found itself in, and who's officials regularly make the news for calling for outright genocide, everyone would call them the bad guys. Meanwhile in the real world we just call that Israel, and waive vaguely at "complicated politics."
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that's just "God's chosen people!" with extra words
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I’m going to save this joke for parties. Damn you a funny guy.
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"threat of larger enemies from its birth"?
Israel is the one occupying and bullying its neighbors, spying on its "allies", doing air-strikes on neutral countries, attacking US research ships, and performing piracy and kidnapping in international waters.
It's the spy agencies you hear nothing of you should worry about.
This, plus all jewish folks I've ever met are naturally smart (not genetically of course, more like societal pressures/expectations/upbringing), hard working like few others, and seem to genuinely veer towards numerical jobs - banking and finance, math, applied math like security, cryptography, trading and so on. Very similar to Iranians to be fair, if US and British MI6 wouldnt be meddling in Iranian internal politics and supporting corrupt shah to steal all the oil cheaply those 2 would be together a superpower on global scale. Israel was very very lucky to not have any oil on their territories.
Plus very much present in US politics and power circles for some reason.
2 examples out of many - my boss is a prime example, every thought somehow infused with money (I work in a bank). My ex gf was exactly the same (she is a successful commodity trader). Just very, very different mindset to the core to say typical european one (I mention folks who are europeans and I've never been to Israel, so extrapolating a bit here).
AdTech engineer here (some 13 years in the industry). A couple of notes:
- The report is highly sensationalist in the "zero-click" aspect. It details to some degree the aspects of distribution and C&C but goes very vague the main point - what was the mechanism that activated that zero malware in a zero-click fashion.
- To the point below that "ad providers should be held responsible." There is no such thing as "ad provider." The AdTech ecosystem is teeming with different niches and business models - see the famous LUMAscapes diagrams: https://lumapartners.com/lumascapes/ . The sheer volume of traffic makes it virtually impossible to vet even a fraction of it. Google has thrown a lot of compute power to pre-scan 3p creatives and even then bad actors can sneak through. Add to this a lot of sophistication on their side (from different landing pages based on the perception of the type of user to farming throw-away advertiser accounts aimed at running just one campaign like that to hijacking legit accounts through sophisticated technical and people engineering means). In the end, politicians full of indignation do what politicians always do - sue or fine Google and call it a victory, whereas the true bad actors just keep going.
Prior to online ads, that is ads that existed on TV, print media, etc, ads were properly vetted. Very few outright scams made it through.
So, it’s definitely possible, especially with human review and static ads. No code. It might not be possible at scale. To me, that’s just not an excuse. If you can’t do something safely at scale, then you shouldn’t. If that means generalized online ads can’t exist then… so be it.
Online ads are definitely still possible. For example, im sure Disney reviews and approves all ads that run on Disney plus. So just do that, and if you can’t do that for e.g. YouTube then dont.
Disney (CTV) doesn't take any open auction demand. All their programmatic demand is deals - meaning that they carefully plan those campaigns with highly reputable agencies and advertisers. There is zero chance for a contentious scammy crypto exchange ad (or even a moderately innocent crypto wallet one) to show on their properties.
Which you can absolutely do, when you are Disney (read, agencies fight to run a campaign with you). When you are, let's say, TechCrunch, the situation changes - you can still strike some deals but a lot of your demand is not the same grade.
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Late night infomercials for get rich quick scams and spam fax machine ads were all over the place by the late '80s sadly.
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Back in the day web sites that were ad-supported had their own departments that dealt with ad sales, so it's not like it can't be done.
One economic consequence is advertising gets expensive and limited to big players, like on TV. Make of that what you will.
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You clearly misunderstand the sheer scale of online advertising (compared to linear TV ads, magazine ads etc). There is no chance you can vet every single creative and a landing page (one public number is 30B daily ads just served by Google alone in 2012 - which is probably closer in spirit to the Punic Wars than to 2026).
That's the first point. Now, who should be responsible for getting the ads? The website? That will absolutely kill the monetization model and it is simply unrealistic. Which means, that responsibility now should be pinned on someone else. Who would that be? My point being that no one there has an inherent lawful obligation to provide such vetting, which would be a) costly and b) only applicable to one player (out of many).
And then we get to bad actors. If I were a really motivated bad actor as early as in 2005, I was serving different creatives and different landing pages to different audiences - a perfectly well-behaved ones to Google's crawlers (again, Google does A LOT to fight malware), a questionable quality clicky ones to general audiences and maybe malware-ridden ones to specifically targeted audiences. And you would not be able to catch me in real time - only after the fact, once the campaign was run and someone looked at the evidence (assuming it was collected, which it isn't normally)
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Direct deals are different than programmatic.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HeadOn My strongest argument that ads were never properly vetted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy There's whole sections of homeopathy in stores. So it's still occurring.
> There is no such thing as "ad provider."
If a website serves me malware, the website's owner should be liable to me. They may then be able to sue someone else, in turn. But I chose to interact with them and then they chose to outsource stuff to crooks.
This would be complicated to implement. But it's absolutely doable.
No, it's not. It completely upsets the economics of content management and makes it absolutely impractical for content owners to monetize through ads. No ad revenue would be worth such liability.
Then there are all kinds of fun scenarios - from drive-by malware to landing page malware to malware served after clicking an ad ON A LANDING PAGE. Who would assume responsibility for those?
Bottom line, this is not much different from "regular" crime. It happens. Governments employ police and various deterrents to reduce it. But it doesn't relieve you, the citizen, of responsibility to be mindful and exercise situational awareness.
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This argument reminds me of when I dealt with telecommunication providers in a law enforcement context.
Their argument was often that the complexities and volume of data, messages, devices just made it impossible for them to help law enforcement even when justified. Almost as if they were apologetic -- they simply cannot help!
But I was in a room once with a very senior police official, prosecutor and several telco reps when the simple question was asked: why is it not impossible then also to do billing?
Every time the conversation moved away from this point, it was forced to return by the non telco members: they knew it would cost money for the telco to help. And any argument against that was simply foregoing that cost at the expense of the safety or well-being of the public, and was unacceptable.
You may feel (in my example) their are many arguments against state surveillance, but the core truth is that all of these ad providers could indeed have systems that at least attempt to prevent this kind of activity -- it would just reduce profits to do so.
Lastly on the zero click lack of detail: it's kind of irrelevant. The exploit might be complicated, but the vector is clear -- the ad network.
This was my main question as well. I read the report, but I'm still not clear on what the browser vulnerability is. This clearly seems like something browser vendors should be able to patch, correct?
The article does say "Both samples use a COM hijack for persistence, though make use of different DLLs." So does this only affect Windows machines? I didn't have time to read the linked 2021 report on Candiru, so maybe more details are there, but for such a detailed write up it would be helpful if the article was more explicit about which browser vulnerability was exploited. The step-by-step info graphic in the article literally skips over how the infection actually occurs.
It seemed to be that they may not have disclosed everything they discovered, so as not to admit to their own "unauthorized access" to a computer. They stated they got credentials for the cnc server but using it would be unauth access - they implied they didn't.
But they did explain some of the infection nonetheless. A COM exploit on Windows for one.
Browsers are pretty well insulated from arbitrary code execution on the host machine, but I bet android has more vulnerabilities. It wasn't long ago that the webp zero day could pwn anyones device who just looked at an infected webp. (Also Israeli spyware, I believe). Similarily, if Windows apps have ad banners, there could be zero days there as well.
> The report is highly sensationalist in the "zero-click" aspect. It details to some degree the aspects of distribution and C&C but goes very vague the main point - what was the mechanism that activated that zero malware in a zero-click fashion.
It read to me like it was assumed to be using OS/browser/application-level exploits to get further access to target devices. I suspect the CitizenLab report is light on details in particular because they don't actually know them:
> In most cases, the user who sees the ad is not selected for targeting, and the server will not return any JavaScript to be executed.
> A large number of ads placed by Discover-Tech contain a script tag pointing back to what the company refers to as a “NOAS server” (also called a “getAd server”). This tag causes the ad, when rendered, to connect back to Discover-Tech, submit advertising identifiers for the user (either a cookie ID or a mobile ad ID), and automatically execute any JavaScript code returned. The NOAS server decides, apparently based on a combination of the source IP address and the advertising identifiers, whether the target is eligible to receive any JavaScript. If so, then code is returned. If not, a 0-byte response is returned. The NOAS server is a key part of Discover-Tech’s strategy, allowing Discover-Tech to avoid directly sharing malicious code, or even pointers to malicious code, with the companies who serve and display the ads.
I and many people believe that google intentionally chooses to keep harmful ads (deceptive, scamming, or leading to malware) this is because it's often very blatant and often survives being reported
Google is able to provide an AI-generated answer for every query, yet somehow can't use the same AI to check whether the sponsored result is an obvious scam.
Your appeal to authority as an "AdTech Engineer" works against you when support your own industry. You have a conflict of interest. Of course you will try to do damage control and PR.
I don't have any conflict of interest. I'm proud of my work and I think it is great. I personally dislike ads as much as the other guy, but I am pragmatic and I have enough sense to understand that this economics has flourished because it maximizes common good: content creators are incentivised to produce good content and get properly and sustainably rewarded, regular users don't get nickel and dimed every time they load some web page.
To paraphrase Churchill, it is a terrible model but others are worse.
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I was surprised by the opening statement too. These guys are the literal scourge of the modern web and he's proud he's been at it for 13 years? Not sure we're on the same page, lol.
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Or you can read what they said and see that it's neither. Not sure why credentials would have any bearing on the material of their comment.
They're pointing out the article lacks substance implied by its title, and essentially that it would be nice to see the actual bad actors being prosecuted instead of the middleman. Both positive things to hear for me? Who cares if they work for the industry.
(The former thing is positive because it saves me time reading the article for information that won't be there.)
> virtually impossible to vet even a fraction of it
It’s a choice, and on the other side of that choice is profit.
I also have a choice. I choose to filter out as many ads I can. That is my vetting process.
I think the simple argument here is that the ad ecosystem should be rebuilt on the default assumption being that ad creatives should be an image and a link with no support for arbitrary rich content.
It would break the long tail of the ad ecosystem, but a bunch of people think the tradeoff is fine.
Given how much of online advertising is now in walled gardens rather than display ads, I think this shows this is more doable than the people who are part of the open ecosystem want it to be.
Not sure why this guy is getting a lot of shit. I play at adops, but I haven't done much with it since we set everything up.
Ads drive the internet. Sorry, but it's true. And you, the technical people, have no real idea of the scale. I don't like ads, but was amused when I had to turn off all my blockers to get stuff done. Many people in the adops world dislike ads, but money.
The point he's making is simple: the ad networks are not responsible for the ad payload. And you might argue the point, but your arguments are worthless. Even finding the entity responsible for the payload will be difficult, and they're probably overseas. Are you going to sue them? No, you're not. Can you actually prove damages, even if you did decide to sue? Probably not.
The structure in the article sounds nefarious, but it's literally the adtech stack. The only thing the company must be doing that's abnormal is tracking all the users in one specific IP range and associating it was a company, likely with their emails. I never touched the targeting section of the stack, but I presume that's possible but not "normal."
>The sheer volume of traffic makes it virtually impossible to vet even a fraction of it
No, it doesn't. Your company is too much of a cheap fuck to do it and would rather offload that cost on society, no matter how bad the effects of it is.
>There is no such thing as "ad provider."
Only when it's to your advantage, because you're very happy to refer to yourself as an ad provider in every single marketing piece.
>AdTech engineer here (some 13 years in the industry)
You've made the world miserable for the past 13 years and have the gall to come over and pretend you're a poor innocent little thing who can't do nothing UwU there's just too much how could we be held responsible.
Also, society/law is willing to let them do it/get away with it, rather than holding them responsible.
Not to jump on you after everyone else did (although I agree with them), but they didn't give you a solution. The solution is unfortunately for everyone a robust KYC regime. Then the linkages stop being impossible to track and instead become merely burdensome.
> AdTech engineer here (some 13 years in the industry).
How do you even plan to explain it to your grand-children?
Obvious sarcasm aside, I compel you to ponder on this question next time you read "free" content on the web (a newspaper, a dedicated niche site or anything in between).
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OK, I read the report, but I'm still not clear on what the browser vulnerability is. This clearly seems like something browser vendors should be able to patch, correct?
The article does say "Both samples use a COM hijack for persistence, though make use of different DLLs." So does this only affect Windows machines? I didn't have time to read the linked 2021 report on Candiru, so maybe more details are there, but for such a detailed write up it would be helpful if the article was more explicit about which browser vulnerability was exploited.
It was a Windows exploit that ran. An adBlocker (funnily enough) would've been an excellent defense against this, given that the exploit ran in JavaScript served in targeted ads.
Though, there is a browser patch for this, don't advertise so much identifiable information that an advertiser can identify a user or their employer. That's the defense, but it'll never happen.
The os exploit is, within this context, after the fact and therefore a non sequitur. You should look up the Project Zero watering hole analysis where they revealed something like 17 0-days being delivered to visitors of one particular site. It's likely that citizen labs only had windows exemplars.
Do you have a link? Why would a site burn 17 0-days like that?
Turns out Google killing Android privacy was completely useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked, but they might use this type of stuff to justify even more closing of supposedly "free" paltforms.
Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
>Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
Totally not useless. It costs a lot more to pay a spyware firm then to have an employee send an email / ask a judge (like that's even necessary).
I feel quite confident of my messages privacy on my Pixel with GrapheneOS given most people I message are on iPhones which are second in security to Pixels running GrapheneOS. Not to mention my threat model doesn't include mercenary spyware, as most people's doesn't.
>Turns out Google killing Android privacy was completely useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked, but they might use this type of stuff to justify even more closing of supposedly "free" paltforms.
If you're talking about the sideloading restrictions those were intended to stop social engineering and scams, not from getting hacked via 0days.
>Likewise, using privacy messengers like Signal is also useless if they can just take control of your entire device anytime they want.
Source? play services is privileged but not that privileged.
> If you're talking about the sideloading restrictions those were intended to stop social engineering and scams
No, those restrictions were intended to keep Android users in the playstore ghetto (which is suffed to the gills with scams.)
> useless as a way to prevent people from being hacked
From being hacked by others. Google was just trying to protect their property, which is the ability to spy on their users' every move. Google themselves really don't need to "hack" their users for that, they already have all the access and all the data they could ever want. And they also have the ability to brick their users' devices at a moment's notice the same as Apple does.
However, this hack could have happened whether sideloading was allowed or not.
In fact, following the OP's link to https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ..., "the company’s ads were shown on almost 200,000 unique websites and Android/iOS apps in dozens of countries" so it's not just apps but ordinary websites you visit in your android chrome browser.
Yes, Google's move to block people from installing software on their own devices is orthogonal to this. I was merely saying that some measures have massive negative effects and basically irrelevant positive effects in the grand scheme of things.
So there's some sort of Android/iOS vulnerability in Chrome/Safari that they're exploiting?
No info on if a recent version patches this?
It also mentions a "Windows DLL" - so they're somehow infecting Windows desktop too?
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I'm sure Google's latest push to make it inconvenient to install apps from outside Google's Playstore, where Google charges a 30% commission, is going to solve that.
Is GrapheneOS affected?
It is standard that companies within a country act in the interests of its security services. Israel has a lot of ad-tech companies and thus it makes sense that they are roped into serving Israel's security services.
It is no different that Israel's location tracking of StarLink terminals worldwide: https://www.newarab.com/news/israel-tech-firms-can-locate-an...
This is the same issue that the US government has with Chinese networking companies, it is too easy for the Chinese government to pressure these Chinese networking companies to put in back doors in the interests of national security. The US likely knows this because it pressures its own companies in similar ways.
Difference being we're pretending that Israel is a democracy that values human rights, so nobody makes a real stink about it, unlike with China.
Only the national brass is pretending at this point.
Why Israel is not a Democracy?
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Bills like the US CLOUD Act (there are similar ones in the EU and China) force service providers to illegally spy on people overseas (via unauthorized use of anything they can access—consider Microsoft’s Windows backdoors).
I think the only technical solution available to individuals is to boycott non-verifiably e2ee services and corporate operating systems (especially including android).
It's not "illegaly spy", it' just spy. National security laws make sure that these requests are all legal - from that particular country's point of view who is forcing the provider to supply the info... and illegal from all the other country's point of view. The root of this problem is that nation states have the final say in what they consider legal. But that difficulty is by design and is very difficult to fix.
A few weeks ago the FBI tipped the Argentinian police that some 15 year old kid from buenos aires province had asked chatgpt for ideas to plan a school massacre.
just to confirm your info... https://buenosairesherald.com/society/argentine-teenager-pla...
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> I think the only technical solution available to individuals is to boycott non-verifiably e2ee services
If the world moved that way overnight, I wonder where digital spy budgets would go. Into traditional techniques, cracking encryption, banning encryption, or a more educated guess?
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This is abhorrent. Every government spying on everyone.. and who benefits from all of this?
Can we get an alien invasion already please, god
Except this isn't the security services they are serving it's a mercenary spyware vendor.
It's really sad this got taken off the front page (347 points, posted 2 hours ago at the time of this comment). Israel is deeply intertwined with the tech industry and they use tech extensively in extremely hostile ways. It's relevant to this site discussion and the votes demonstrate that. There's no reason to hide the elephant in the room, let's address it, now is the time.
This is even crazier than the last time Citizen Lab found an Israeli zero-click spyware (Pegasus). You could call it a sequel
Don't call it a comeback, I been here for years Rocking my peers and putting suckas in fear
Is that the song from LL Cool J?
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Y'all will be shocked at how much of the VPN space is owned/controlled by Israel.
https://share.gemini.google/DbWctQhiJXMh
my guy really linked his gemini chat as a source
It's kinda funny that a website with an article titled "Online ads weaponised to deliver ‘zero-click’ spyware" immediately loads a splash that asks users with adblock installed to disable it.
The separation between advertising and editorial has never been greater. Brought to you by the marketing wizards who saw you bought a vacuum cleaner on Amazon and concluded you love buying vacuum cleaners so here’s some more.
The site works much better with JS disabled.
>During our analysis of the Controlium platform, we observed that the source code mentioned an endpoint called “/csv-download”, which accepted start and end date parameters. When we sent normal HTTP GET requests to this endpoint without any password, special headers, or authentication token, we received logs showing which users had logged in to Controlium, and from which IP addresses.
Absolute morons.
As much as it sucks for the ecosystem that's built itself up around the world wide web, good ad blockers and fingerprinting protection are as important as firewalls and antiviruses now. There's no more babies in this fetid bathwater.
Obviously not the first time an Israeli tech firm is responsible for these types of exploits, and at this point I'd go so far as saying that any Israeli-based tech company (especially cyber security ones, of which they have a strong industry) should be considered beholden to the government of Israel and hence, probably not trustworthy. How could you be sure whether they will act like a trustworthy independent entity, or compromise your data for the benefit of the state?
I would sooner trust a Chinese company than an Israeli company. Is there any country less trustworthy and more hostile to users?
This is a weird question and comment because a country doesn't generally make the software. But I suppose they seem to have a lot of influence on the companies. Like surveillance cameras in China.
If I was to say which countries do the most to restrict digital freedom, I'd say look at this table: https://eylenburg.github.io/countries.htm
If I was to say what companies have done the most to take the most privacy from the most people, it would be American big tech like Google and Meta.
There's some okayish software from Israel I can think of, like Zcash.
These Israeli ones are literal criminal companies. What Meta does should be illegal. Both are immoral.
A single spyware against a journalist is much worse than a single Facebook user, but for the total impact on society, they both destroy democracy and human rights significantly.
>I would sooner trust a Chinese company than an Israeli company
As for trust, with privacy I'm a big proponent of avoiding it. Use E2EE or self host if you have to. The country does not matter so much.
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You wouldn’t put personal data and trust in a Chinese app.
Israel still have the reputation of being part of the ‘free world’ in the collective mind.
that is more dangerous.
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That doesn't make any sense. China is a full dictatorship, Israel is not.
Vote me down all you want for saying something about Israel that's not super negative, but it's not a "which country do I dislike most" competition when it comes to facts.
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Define "hostile to users" a bit more. Chinese devices recklessly place rando back-doors into things, opening up them up to everyone and their mother. Average consumer router firmware? Compromised. They swallow up any and all information they can get their hands on and operate scam centers where they can utilize the info to blackmail people. Israel seems to have a more targeted approach, albeit there is definitely a blast radius. I'm not sure I can say any one country is worse than the other when it comes to cybersecurity. That includes: USA, Iran, North Korea, China, Israel, Russia etc. They all put consumers at risk; whether it's immediate or down the line when the exploits are revealed and other bad actors (scammers) are able to leverage them. It's a lose-lose for us either way.
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Some multinationals have their R&D offices in Israel, there's a lot of pretty good research coming out. Russia would probably be worse in terms of trust and they are openly hostile to the West unlike Israel.
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> should be considered beholden to the government of Israel
Do we have evidence this is a state operation versus a criminal group?
Excellent question. It seems likely because:
* The state of Israel does authorize spyware sales (eg NSO Group has to get a license from the Ministry of Defense, and Israel's Defense Export Control Agency states that its decisions take national security / foreign policy into account).
* In the case of Pegasus, NYT had reported that Netanyahu intervened to make an exception allowing sale of Pegasus to Saudi Arabia (as political leverage). NSO group execs used Israeli diplomatic passports when they traveled and stayed at the Israeli embassy.
* The government doesn't crack down on these industries, which it would do if it really considered them criminal.
* In this particular case, one of the main targets was Al Jazeera, which seems unlikely that a criminal company would want to target vs. a state actor.
So yea, the government seems to allow these companies to engage in what other countries would consider criminal activity. You can then kind of choose your spot on the spectrum of: "I think this is some broad conspiracy the government purposefully designed for large-scale espionage" or just "The Israeli government thinks it would be good to have great cybersecurity skills in the country so they bend the rules a little".
A good well-researched read is The Palestine Laboratory by Antony Loewenstein.
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Don't be antisemitic.
Jewish and Israeli are not identical. It's possible for someone to have negative views of the country without that being a stance on people who are Jewish.
Many, many, many Fortune 500 companies use Israeli cybersecurity services.
I guess that your concerns are not aligned with reality, or the benefits far outweigh whatever it is you think may happen.
(Talking as an Israeli working in cybersecurity)
Or maybe fortune 500 companies have different vulnerabilities, financial power, and concerns than individual humans.
> Many, many, many Fortune 500 companies use Israeli cybersecurity services.
It's possible for this to be true, and that they spy on said companies on behalf of the government of Israel. It makes it easier to do so.
I'm saying they shouldn't do that, because there is a decent chance those Israeli companies may do things at odds with their customers' best interests (because they cannot or would not say no to a government request).
A good chunk of the EU powergrid uses Israeli made embedded systems.
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Hopefully that will change soon.
If you work for an ad tech firm you are one of the baddies.
How does this actually work? Are they talking about browser fingerprinting or something else?
Looks like it's much worse, they get more information due to exploits, and they can take full control of your machine.
Article on the CitizenLab website: https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
This should have been the OP.
There is a tinfoil narrative that suggest that entire formats are in bed with intelligence services. It sounds pretty wild, but other zero-click attack vectors have been possible through sabotaging the parsing of file formats. ie. send a message -> hacked. How? the message wasnt even opened. How is, an app like Messenger receives a photo attachment binary, tries to unpack it and in doing so receives an instruction that stops the parser and executes arbitrary instructions.
Go to LinkedIn, and check how many ex Unit 8200 (a group you never really quit until you are 50)...work for the Apple iOS dev team...
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It's routine for apps like Messenger to pre-download attachments (eg to compute a resized preview of the image etc)
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With all the AI decompilation going on would it not be possible to find these things in the binary by now?
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They use ad network to try to target individual user visiting a page (eg you know your target is a male, 60 years old, living in that area, with a few other checks you can almost uniquely identify your target)
Then the ad network delivers a targeted ad that exploits a vulnerability (eg a broken JPEG decoder that, when sent a bad image, allows to run arbitrary code on your machine), and from there you have access to the computer
Here is a better article https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
https://blog.confiant.com/p/adint-weaponized-ad-tech-for-zer...
https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
If I had to ponder a guess…
It’s to do with hiding malware/spyware in an image which ends up in your cache on device. I can’t go much further into details but all this takes is for you to visit a site that serves it via ad network.
Israel has been known to have some sneaky spyware in the past with Pegasus.
How the ad-based spyware actually worked (from the Citizen Lab and Confiant reports):
- It came in through the front door. Discover-Tech ran its own ad-buying platform and was listed as a "certified" vendor by Google and IAB Europe for six years. Nothing was hacked to get in. It bid in ad auctions like any other buyer.
- The ads looked harmless. Plain banners for games, AliExpress deals and an IP-lookup site. Hidden inside each one was a small script that quietly phoned home when the ad loaded.
- Everyone who saw an ad was profiled. The script collected device details, IP addresses and, on many sites, the publisher's own cookies, sometimes including logged-in session tokens. Cookie-syncing with other ad networks built a huge identity graph.
- Only chosen targets got the payload. A gatekeeper server checked each device's ad ID and IP. Most people got nothing back. A selected target got code that handed them off to spyware maker Candiru, and the code was served only once, which made it very hard for researchers to capture.
- The handoff was built to defeat inspection. Encrypted channels, rotating hosting, anti-bot checks and even a fake "Copyright Google" comment to fool human reviewers.
- It worked. At least 45 devices at Al Jazeera were targeted, and spyware was recovered from an infected machine. Its ads also appeared on networks belonging to NATO, the UN, the European Parliament, the ICC and various defence ministries.
- The scale was huge. Billions of bids and ads in nearly 200,000 apps and websites, including Duolingo, Viber, Yahoo Mail, dating apps and period trackers, yet almost no sign of real advertisers or revenue.
Citizen Lab: https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
Confiant: https://blog.confiant.com/p/adint-weaponized-ad-tech-for-zer...
Citizen Lab also has a shorter executive summary: https://citizenlab.ca/research/exposing-adfection-executive-...
Did you AI generate this? The wording looks suspicious and sure enough, it's flagged by pangram as AI.
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Wait what, so there is no content disarm between companies making ads, and the publishers? They can literally push whatever they want? Wild.
Edit:
the TFA answers: "Advertisers or DSPs may run HTML and JavaScript code when an ad is shown to the user." Its wild! I thought the ads are sanitized, go through a CDR of sorts, and whatever javascript is permitted is authored by ad networks, not the buyers. Sheesh. Thats just RCE.
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"Researchers also recommend that users at high risk of targeting use ad blockers, disable ad tracking, and regularly reset mobile ad IDs.". Not "recommend". Everyone must use uBlock Origin or at least some type of ad blocker in every device.
Then also mandatory pi-hole on every house.
Even if you are used by Windows OS, you must use an adblocker. Even if you use Chrome. On every browser.
Yes. Browsing without an adblocker is analogous to driving without a seatbelt. Sure, you can do it - but it's a terribly unsafe idea.
Internet without ublock origin looks and feels horrible, something about insulting basic human decency with o slaught of ads desperately taking so much space.
Apps should be required to disclose every single ad network they use as part of their app store disclosures. I want a lot more transparency as to where the ads are coming from inside the app itself.
I've witnessed consumer apps throwing quite heinous malware/sketchware advertisements and watched the banners rotate between 4-5 different ad vendors to keep things hot and spicy.
The incentives are lopsided, there’s so much money to be made by selling access to you and your devices, and controlling you, than just taking your money.
Indeed, it seems there are some externalities that a 100% free market doesn’t protect against for which regulation is probably the best tool.
A regulation here that applies to all app stores is even business friendly as an appstore which wanted to do this already wouldn’t be punished by trying to do this on their own, for the reasons you mentioned.
It's fun to see adtech digging a hole for themselves ...
If only! I think we can no longer afford to ignore all these security threats and should make online advertising wholesale illegal. But I won't hold my breath.
The ads are getting insane, they're trying to fill every bit of space you can look with ads. You go to a restaurant there's ads on your placemat. You go to the grocery store there's ads in your cart. They put chargers in the parking lot so now there's ads out there.
Streaming services used to be bad enough with ads in the shows, now they put an ad on the screen when you pause it. Peacock just started putting ads in the login screen.
If we don't stop this, pretty soon they're going to have ads in the stars as satellite constellations arrange themselves to sell you Twitter subscriptions. They're not going to stop even when there's an ad no matter where you look.
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this is why adblock is completely necessary, not just for your eyes, but for security.
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Ads providers should be held responsible for delivering malware. All the tracking (that includes fingerprinting for clients that do not want to be tracked) should also be illegal.
How is this acceptable for society goes beyond me. And then corporations blame individuals when they get scammed. It is your fault that we have all your information and leak it everywhere, when it is not just directly sold.
And add jail time to fines. Fines means nothing for the rich.
I think it would be nice for them to be held accountable but I get the feeling this is part of a wider nation state intelligence apparatus and I doubt that they will hold themselves accountable.
The default setups are also _crazy_.
So you search for company A wanting to buy their product. You check out. Basically every setup I've audited has every tracking product ever for everything.
So you buy X, and the company sends that purchase event with your information to Meta, Google, TikTok, Applovin, Klaviyo, and 10 others.
This idea is hopelessly entrenched in every marketing department, who has leadership's ear: We HAVE to send EVERYTHING to EVERYONE otherwise our ROAS will go DOWN!
Every platform works this way, they're all set up to put giant red banners on your marketer's dashboards
"You could be getting 50% better results if you sent <customer_2nd_grade_report_card>!"
Its basically how all the ad platforms fundamentally work: they use conversion events to train their ad algorithms.
nah, you'll never get there that way. Even if there was willpower to do it legislating these things is too hard.
What we need is some greedy lawyers and civil liability. Find a campaign that infected enough individuals, fire up a class-action lawsuit against the website on which the ads where actually shown (not the ad provider).
If they win the landscape will change. It would set a precedent for civil liability for infecting your users even when it's not your content directly. That would likely spook the shit out of the market, security becomes a feature.
Why the website instead of the ad provider? The website didn't server the ad. The ad provider did and should be the responsible part to ensure what it provides is not malicious.
Attacking a single website does nothing. If you bankrupt the site, there are millions more sites. If you attack the ad provider, bankrupting it, and shutting it down, millions of sites are now protected.
Your logic just doesn't compute
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You're wrong on legislating these things. If the ad network is forced into KYC for their ad distributions and they are excluded from safe harbor, like a TV network would be, then I guarantee those ads cease to exist.
This mentality of "it's to hard" doesn't get things done.
I do agree that some greedy lawyers and civil liability would solve this, but that's not a long term solution at all.
> What we need is some greedy lawyers and civil liability. Find a campaign that infected enough individuals, fire up a class-action lawsuit against the website on which the ads where actually shown (not the ad provider).
Laughable. As countless class action lawsuits have demonstrated the victims are never made whole (https://instituteforlegalreform.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/...), the criminals get a slap on the wrist fine that is a tiny fraction of the profit they made doing crime, and the lawyers walk away with pockets filled with cash while nothing changes. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10611-024-10170-w)
Fine's and class action lawsuits don't work. Throw some CEOs in jail and things will actually change.
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This is not the problem. You visiting any website can lead to your computer running the same code.
The main problem is that the exploits from js to code execution or data exfil are possible in the first place. The issue is that you have JS, which is generally pretty isolated, able to talk to bundled libraries (like libwebrtc), which often contain the exploits and share the same memory space. There needs to be a intermediate layer between JS talking to any such library, like process isolation with IPC for communication.
Sure, but there's a big difference between going to a sketchy, malicious site vs a reputable site that does serve ads and now being at the mercy of any arbitrary crap in the ad you didn't choose to see
We should make targeted advertising illegal, full stop. This would remove so many perverse incentives in the system.
It seems like ads already violate the law via whatever that "unauthorized usage" law is that the government likes to throw around.
Too bad no one has the guts to enforce the law that way.
That would mean some google people going to jail...
If such a thing were passed, it can't apply retroactively. But yes, google people would go to jail when they inevitably flout it as they are accustomed to doing. We should make this happen.
People in the US have a unique window of opportunity starting TODAY (Oct 2026) in many places with early voting. I implore everyone who is able to vote in the midterms to do so.
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Stop, stop, I can only dream so hard.
All ads are malware.
And all spyware is "mercenary" spyware, at least in the sense that the creators only care about money and are willing to hurt others to get it.
> And add jail time to fines. Fines means nothing for the rich.
This, pretty much. Money removes consequence form your actions. If every time you screwed up, instead of being fined you had to wear a silly hat, go on TV and apologize, or get some time behind bars, even if it were 1 or 2 days it would be very effective.
I'm not sure you understand what you're asking for, or if you do you have not followed the results of this to its conclusion
This comment is meaningless without stating the unintended consequence you believe you’ve identified.
> How is this acceptable for society goes beyond me.
Easy, when your society glorifies and deifies greed, you can excuse literally any act so long as it makes enough money.
That's it. That's the entire explanation. It's capitalism and greed.
> That's the entire explanation.
Not quite. Most people in society are completely oblivious to this happening. And their lack of awareness is why the exploiters don't face more public opposition.
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Looking at the bright side, we might just be able to make people really dislike ads.
People have disliked ads since ads existed. Carl Sagan's 1985 book Contact includes a brazillionaire S.R. Hadden who made his fortune by inventing an adblocker for television. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contact_(novel)
For those who haven't learned their lesson yet, I doubt anything could move the needle.
The FBI has previously recommended running adblockers as a method to prevent malware and especially scamming. Nobody cares much.
It’s a low-hanging fruit that has high value, particularly for less savvy internet users. Scams have always been the biggest threat. I’d say the majority of internet ads are scams, and the platforms often don’t make it clear what is or is not an ad.
But, we always knew the risk of malware was there. In the modern age, ads are basically never delivered as static assets. They’re delivered as small applications, with code. So, we’re relying on our sandboxing mechanics to work perfectly, and predictably they don’t. The solution is to block the code altogether; to block ads.
Aren't earliest government backed recommendations, to block all ads for security reasons, something like 20 years old? For example, this one: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/publications/Capaci... is from 2013. I am sure there were earlier I just can't find them.
archived, no ads or trackers: https://nonograph.com/online-ads-weaponised-to-deliver-zero-...
Would installing ad-blocker software give me any protection from this stuff?
It seems to be app-based. So DNS blocking could work; it's easily circumvented by the platforms, but it's rarely circumvented. like mobile games with those ads.
You should threat model, but if you want to maximally protect yourself, use Vanadium or Brave Browser and GrapheneOS and no privacy invasive apps.
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/basics/threat-modeling/
I’m a little confused how mobile ad targeting ends up as a DLL hijack?
This was my first question as well. There’s a big gap between “ad network delivers JS” and a zero-click browser exploit. CitizenLab has done some great research including OSINT on the former, but there’s a conspicuous gap between it and the DLL ending up on the victim’s machine.
There are mentions of CVEs in that article with Chrome exploits.
mobile ads can deliver JS-based exploits
But how do the DLLs hack you
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Someone should look at mergers of large digital advertising companies after Trump's most recent election... And then look at the timing of it. The countries involved happened to be Israeli and have many employees based out of Argentina. Which is crazy since the United States, Israel and Argentina happened to become extremely close after that election cycle...
The CTO happens to have worked for Radware
https://radware.com/
https://www.innovid.com/about-us/news/mediaocean-completes-a...
I wonder how we're going to unwind this mess in the upcoming years. It seems as if there was a concerted effort to plan this all out before Trump got elected, and then everything fell into place. They obviously have a post Trump plan ready to go. I partially blame the left(really the moderates) in the U.S. For being so unbelievably complacent that it led us to this mess. I just wonder how we're going to unwind this. Nothing lasts forever, but the transition in between states always tends to be disrupting.
Moderates in the US are funded by AIPAC as well.
The timing just seems very peculiar. I wish investigative journalists would do further investigation into this topic.
Knew the country of origin before I read the article. Surprise!
Some countries are good with military hardware, and some are good with military software. e.g: Stuxnet.
Awful lot of words here, but not much explanation of the actual capabilities of the "zero-click spyware". Tacking on the phrase "zero-click" suggests some kind of browser exploit, but it seems like this is just the same sort of thing as tracking cookies, third-party telemetry etc.
No, they’re using those same techniques,
and they’re just as troublesome as they were before,
to the degree they’re provably being used to decide who to send malicious payloads to…
Zero-click simply highlights if the user needs to actively interact with an element to get a malicious payload - or not.
This did get me interested in the specifics of the payload, though:
“It maintains persistence via COM hijacking by overwriting a legitimate COM class registry key’s DLL path with a first-stage DLL dropped in C:\Windows\system32\IME\, and it stores encrypted second-stage payloads in the configuration directory. A signed third-party driver (physmem.sys) enables kernel-level memory access and API call proxying to avoid detection. To preserve system stability, DevilsTongue reinjects the original COM DLL during hijacking, disguising this action through shellcode manipulation of the LoadLibraryExW return value. All additional payloads are decrypted and executed only in memory, allowing the malware to steal credentials from LSASS and browsers, access Signal messages, and use browser cookies to impersonate victims on platforms like Facebook, Gmail, and VK. The malware’s use of scrubbed metadata, encryption, and unique hashes for each file further complicates detection and analysis.”
from https://www.recordedfuture.com/research/tracking-candirus-de...
thank you for providing that citation; the recorded future article does provide a better explanation of the exploit details that the original post
This is still missing the point I was trying to make. Why was it possible for sandboxed JS from a webpage to interact with COM, in any way whatsoever?
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Keep reading:
https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
Yes, in fact I skipped to that section. It describes targeting, and then a vague mention of ad impressions leading to "connections" to a C2 server (but the simple fact of contacting a domain doesn't establish C2; anyone can send an AJAX request anywhere). Then they describe a "fingerprint" of servers which appears to consist of... HTTP responses with several blank fields and a claim of running on Apache. Then they say that they found a compromised DLL, which they attribute to the ads based on the DLL hard-coding some domains related to the ad campaign.
But there is nothing explaining how the DLL becomes zero-click compromised by the ad.
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If someone you care about doesn't run an ad blocker, it's time to change that. They don't even have to be gullible and likely to click on things they shouldn't. Zero click is zero click. Don't just tell them they should. They likely won't. Go with them to their computer and install an ad blocker for them on the spot. It's time.
Maybe Google, Yandex, etc. will decide this is the last straw and finally get serious about filtering malicious ads out of their services. Past history indicates they won't. I feel sorry for anyone who depends on ad revenue, but not sorry enough to expose people I care about to this crap.
You have to go about 5 pages deep on any search, anywhere, before you find something positive about "israel"
Seems like a second-order effect to me, and this report is a good example
they do have a really big and well stocked skin bank! Its positive as long as you don't start asking where it came from :P
Committing a genocide does typically reduce one's cachet.
So reading the article, it feels a bit confusing what zero click exploit they are talking about. It sounds like they are talking about CVE-2021-21166, but if they really are talking about an exploit from 5 years ago, i feel like their intro paragraph is rather misleading.
Online ad networks are zero-click spyware and their entire purpose is to maniputate the user against his own interests. The only reasonable thing to do is to block them entirely and for everyone.
Targets could have been identified using pretty basic advertising and marketing techniques. Bid requests broadcast IP, device details, and ad IDs to every bidder. Intersecting topic audiences across a few months of Al Jazeera stories could narrow that audience to a few individuals. The ad ecosystem already does set-intersection de-anonymization to identify interests and profile customers.
https://404privacy.com/blog/how-israel-used-ad-auctions-to-d...
The article contains no information on which browsers are impacted, what exploit is being used, if it has been patched, etc? Does anyone know more about how this ad network is exploiting browsers to install spyware on the users machine?
Buried in the Citizenlab report are links to CVEs from Windows and Chrome that the report says were exploited. These CVE's date back to the early 20's and have been patched.
As I skimmed the CitizenLab report, it was particularly interesting to see the history of the company and how they may have been acquired specifically to use as a covert operation.
Of course, who else could it be.
How paranoid should one be of, say for example, a wasm vulnerability exploited on zero day by a bad JS ad?
I am scared for my parents to get exposed to this kind of thing from bad ad network actors. Does anyone have some practical concrete recommendations they took? Like I don't think they can install ublock origin and whitelist sites on demand in Firefox they way I do.
The only practical thing right now is to make sure they don't have the money on device and have 2 fac for email and bank accounts. But every now and then there are phishing attamepts that they could fall prey to.
Install uBlock Origin and don't whitelist any sites. The default filter lists break almost nothing, only once you start including the "annoyances" lists etc. do you start running into significant breakage.
Without an ad blocker, they will be exposed to such an amount of social engineering (ranging from dropshipping sites, to subscription scams, to scam shops that don't ship at all but steal your CC data, to fake sites for government services, to attempts to trick you into installing malware) that you can't expect them to resist it. If installing uBO seems hard, resisting this or cleaning up the consequences is harder.
The amount of "hey have you heard of this great new product I saw" <photo of a handwritten note of the content of a scam site> went down from weekly to near zero once I got a relative to use an ad blocking browser.
> I am scared for my parents to get exposed to this kind of thing
It's tough. One option is to hope/assume that exploits only compromise user accounts rather than the whole computer.
In that case you can blacklist the banking website from the day-to-day browser as a reminder to switch to the other account, and configure the other account's browser so that it can do little else.
The lesson from story: Install adblockers on all your devices
Given whom did this attack, I would not be surprised if it was used as intel for strikes on journalists.
There are reliable sources from inside the Israeli Intelligence apparatus that have stated on record that decisions were made to sacrifice 500+ innocent civilians to carry out a strike on one human target. I bet such a strike would be more likely if spyware indicated that one of the innocents was an "enemy" journalist.
Very weird to me that they never recommend that the industry could stop adding javascript to their website. They recommend millions of layer of "security" but never recommend the end of javascript. This is outrageous to me. Disable javascript!!!
I would be interested in knowing which devices were (or still are) vulnerable to these zero click exploits. And how those exploits (used to) work, specifically.
Title is: Online ads weaponised to deliver ‘zero-click’ spyware, researchers say
In fact, just update the url and title to the report:
How Discover-Tech Turned Targeted Ads Into a Pipeline for Zero-Click Mercenary Spyware
https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
uBlock Origin ftw
Plus a dns based blocker for other apps. Android has an option ready for that, iPhone it will be like VPN.
Actually you can load a configuration profile on iOS and force everything to a custom DNS. Works great for me on NextDNS
Then you can drastically reduce the mobile in browser block list which helps a lot with battery
And wBlock on Safari.
It does not support Manifest-v2.
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For as clever as some of the spy techniques are, they sure don't seem to be very good on opsec.
> We found two world-readable Apache Druid instances running on Discover-Tech’s website mtrtb[.]com. The druid.mtrtb[.]com endpoint contains bidding data for Discover-Tech’s MyDSP platform
The fact one of the spyware cos was named after the fish that swims up your dick hole is too funny
Citzen Lab isn't always the most reliable source: https://researchonline.lse.ac.uk/id/eprint/118492/
Classic; when you can't kill the message, kill the messenger. [0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger
Nope. If the messenger has a history of being unreliable, it's valid to call him out. I'm glad you read a TikTok guide on fallacies, but this isn't one of them.
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Do ad blockers protect against this?
> Reuters has reported that billions of dollars’ worth of Meta’s ad revenue comes from ads for scams, illegal gambling, pornography and other banned content. In the US, ICE and other government agencies have bought software that uses ad tech data to track people’s movements.
I don't know if an ad blocker protects against Discover-Tech’s Controlium but in general you'd be a fool to allow ads in your browser in at this point. The ad industry is pretty shady all round.
For years there was a strong segment of HN commenters who would come on and declare a moral imperative for not using ad blockers and looking at every ad you could in order to support a website.
One must wonder how many were genuine vs an influence op.
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On web, likely. If it's in app mobile then no. Run a DNS ad blocker.
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I doubt it's that easy to click on a link and install malware without the user knowing. Most browsers are highly secure and finding a zero day isn't that easy these days because both sides use A.I. to find vulnerabilities and to secure against them.
It’s not “easy”, it requires a complex infrastructure of exploit devs (who can sell their findings for millions in some cases) and the companies who package these exploits together with implants and sell them.
https://www.packetlabs.net/posts/demystifying-the-market-for...
"Most browsers are highly secure"... erm no
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Incredible that they don't clearly say what the exploit is and what OS/hardware/apps is/are vulnerable. Still, quite a lot of interesting info about the modern ad delivery networks sewer system...
Quite amusing that the Crusader states have exchanged horses, swords and shields for spinny chair, ads, and adblockers.
Wonder what the world's most boring ideological argument will bring us in the year 3027.
Taboola ads is zero click garbage which makes ones eyes bleed. This stuff is just a tad more sinister or a step further than that but along the same lines, more or less.
Curious if GrapheneOS phones were also vulnerable to this.
Wild guess even if not in this particular case it's best to consider the possibility as non theoretical.
Chance of sanctions?
Zero
NSO was sanctioned, so slightly higher than zero imo.
Earlier link:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50101813
Again Israel causing troubles.... :/
The headline is "Online ads weaponised to deliver ‘zero-click’ spyware, researchers say"
Once again proving that ads are an unacceptable security threat. All those sites now deploying ad-blocker blockers should assume liability for whatever ad software they force their readers to run.
Very strong reason for everyone to install ad-blockers on all of their devices.
I wonder who they were facilitating the targeting for given the target countries.
It doesn't make sense how this is even possible.
if anyone is well versed with this tech; can this be used to target regular people? how can an average joe protect themselves from this?
1) Of course, although you probably aren't worth a zero day.
2) Adblockers
This is what ad networks are for, by the way
I don't see any ads, so ...
All ads should have to appear in an <advertisement> node, and users should have the option of disabling javascript within an advertisement. Make it the fucking law.
This isnt the first…
https://news.softpedia.com/news/The-Jester-Presents-Project-...
Back in 2012 The Jester claimed he used targeted spyware to target Mir Islam or Josh the God leader of UGNazi which according to him led to his arrest, though law enforcement never confirmed it.
Interestingly enough they have his laptop he used for a while in a museum.
https://www.spymuseum.org/exhibition-experiences/about-the-c...
Found his blog post about it:
https://th3j35t3r.wordpress.com/category/hacker-tracker/
tel aviv impressed
Why would anyone trust any Israeli cybersecurity firm at this point? Any website or service knowingly utilizing their services is a huge risk. They're already deeply embedded in federal and local governments so there is a strong sense of doom.
Whenever I think of Israeli ad tech one company always springs to mind, which creates some of the worst garbage on the whole Internet.
https://www.taboola.com/
This crap is the worst of the worst.
Absolutely terrible companies. Another one is https://fingerprint.com/ but iirc they don't do ad targetting.
"uBlock Origin has prevented the following page from loading:"
Someone should look at mergers of large digital advertising companies after Trump's most recent election... And then look at the timing of it. The countries involved happened to be Israeli and have many employees based out of Argentina. Which is crazy since the United States, Israel and Argentina happened to become extremely close after that election cycle... The CTO happens to have worked for Radware
https://radware.com/
https://www.innovid.com/about-us/news/mediaocean-completes-a...
> Related work by the research group Confiant also suggests that Discover-Tech’s ads have been shown to users of the networks of government entities in Europe and the US, as well as the UN, Nato, the international criminal court and the International Atomic Energy Agency.
Yet we don't sanction Israel nor hold them accountable in any way. Of course they're spying on members of the UN and ICC, of course. Israel is at war with the entire world right now, and my politicians continue to support them. Thankfully many people have woken up, but the situation is dire.
Israel keeps being dick earns reputation.
Based on responses from roughly 46,700 people assessing 129 countries, Israel ranked as the most negatively perceived country worldwide, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan, and Iran. The most positively viewed were Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, and Italy.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260513-israel-becomes-wo...
We don't sanction Israel because we are doing it too. Any country with the same capabilities are doing the same thing.
We sanction plenty of other countries where we do the same thing we're sanctioning them for.
That conflates the state with a business headquartered in it. It begs the question of what the sanctions would be for: is the argument that this firm is an arm of Israel, that Israel turns a blind eye to abusive businesses, or something else?
Yes, obviously the state and this company are the same thing. Why would a private company spy on the ICC and the UN? I’m sure there are plenty of 8200 people involved.
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My Democratic Rep (who is a Zionist) voted with the Republican Party to financially sanction and impose visa restrictions on members of the International Criminal Court for issuing an arrest warrant for Netanyahu, so the ICC could hold Netanyahu for trial.
I will never vote for this particular (D) candidate again. Fortunately, the (L) candidate seems reasonable.
If indeed your representatives support Israel or the genocide in Gaza, I urge you to consider voting 3rd party. In two-party elections, candidates mostly just try to be a little better than their opponent. What forces them to do more isn’t a third party actually winning. It’s a real risk that enough fed-up voters will go third-party and cost them the election. This is basic game theory optimization.
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...and the women and children of Gaza who happen to live with members of Hamas.
...and the rest of the world.
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Oh darn, maybe we should just ban the entire online advertising industry. Gosh, what value we'd lose if we couldn't have our personalized attention destroying glitter boxes.
My opinion on web infra patronage has shifted over time, I used to generally accept that for small websites to exist advertising was a necessary evil since they were too niche to have a real revenue source. Then I ran one and I realized that there's far more labor costs involved in maintaining a site than infra costs and that for niche hobbies and communities ten bucks can just find its way into a central pot every month to keep the lights on by those with a bit more to spare.
I am now of the opinion that web communities can survive in the same way arts and other liberal pursuits have always survived. People with a bit more to spare put more into the pot to create the community they want to exist in and "freeloaders" is an alien concept to the genuinely interested since that money is being spent to create a place where meeting can take place without a financial requirement.
>I am now of the opinion that web communities can survive in the same way arts and other liberal pursuits have always survived.
And the only 'users' of these websites will be rich people? Because the moment a paywall goes up on a website it becomes unusable for a large portion of the planet.
Not at all, a few people pay to make it available as a service to others because they want it to exist. It's like this website - there are no (traditional) ads and most of us have paid nothing to use it. A small expenditure creates a good community for technical discussion that the hosts value existing and for being able to occasionally promote their ventures on.
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Were the hypothetical "paywalls everywhere" scenario to play out, sites would quickly consolidate their subscriptions. So a subscription to something like Engadget would get you access to a wide swath of sites, making the paywall a lot more palatable overall. This would be the inevitable outcome because it would be the most natural way for sites to compete with other sites.
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Cool, cool… the “pot of money” model you’re proposing is possible right now, yet is used essentially nowhere outside of substack writers. That’s a very clear signal.
If you ban online advertising, every publisher you know and like will either exit the market or need to use a paywall (which are famously… popular and successful for niche publishers? No.)
You can call online advertising loathsome if you want (indeed a lot of it sucks - no argument!) but it pays for content that everyone consumes. (Unless you only use HN, which is 99% of the time a collection of links to other sites with ads or paywalls or both.)
Regulate online advertising - fine. But “banning” it (what would that even involve?) is not a serious suggestion.
Tons of webforums have donation links or premium memberships. People will pay for their name to be displayed in a different color and basically nothing else, and it's not super hard if you have a few hundred users to pay for servers this way.
It's a fine model so long as you don't need it to scale to one million active users.
I'm still of the opinion that the end of online advertising would be a significant net benefit to society, if for no other reason then the incentives to keep you interacting with a social network / website / app / media / etc. fade away.
> If you ban online advertising, every publisher you know and like will either exit the market or need to use a paywall (which are famously… popular and successful for niche publishers? No.)
OK.
Actual report from Citizen Lab:
* https://citizenlab.ca/research/how-discover-tech-turned-targ...
(This comment must have been posted in one of the other threads before we merged them hither. I don't recall which one, but the other links are in the toptext.)
A later submission has more comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50103000 , 57 comments 1 hour ago
Seems like the title was too spicy / people couldn’t behave, post rank obliterated https://news.social-protocols.org/stats?id=50103000
Hope we follow guidelines under this link or “then nobody gets it!”
What can we expect from the most unpopular country in the world:
Based on responses from roughly 46,700 people assessing 129 countries, X ranked as the most negatively perceived country worldwide, ahead of North Korea, Afghanistan, and Iran. The most positively viewed were Switzerland, Canada, Japan, Sweden, and Italy.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20260513-israel-becomes-wo...
I'm of the belief that when that happens, it is state-sponsored bots messing with the voting. Sometimes when I make a comment on political matters, it gets waves of upvotes and downvotes.
Thanks - we'll merge them.
Israel has been a nexus of cybercrime for as long as they've been on the internet at all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Download_Valley
Why do some of the most evil tech companies, especially ones that use exploits and zero-days as part of their business model, disproportionately originate from the same small (population-wise) country? The company from the article, all the other examples everyone here lists, Candiru, NSO... All Israeli.
One factor is that Israel generally refuses to extradite their citizens who are accused of crimes in foreign countries. So they effectively operate with a certain level of legal immunity.
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It isn't all Israel. North Korea, Russia, and Iran have long been known to be where most cyber crime comes from. Israel is there, but they are an also-ran compared to the others. (but Israel does tend to have more sophisticated attacks). The US also has done a large share, but mostly that is government attacks on other governments (that we know of).
Israel has a lot of enemies that going against them. Which is why they have incentive to be good at this - to attack back. Corporate attempts are just ways to make money.
I'm going to stay out of the political issue of what any actor should do.
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Their military is very good at cyber-warfare. The gap has narrowed in the last decade, but before that there wasn't even a distant second, maybe Russia. People serve in those units, acquire very useful and specific skills, then start companies that offer commercial variants of cyber-warfare, or become subcontractors for other governments.
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In this book, they explain that it's because this industry is de-regulated:
Pegasus: How a Spy in Your Pocket Threatens the End of Privacy, Dignity, and Democracy by Lauret Richard
Seems pretty straightforward. If you are surrounded by adversaries that vastly outnumber you, you invest in other forms of strength
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Because those are typically created by ex-military people who had become civilians and now they need to make money with the skills they have.
OK this might be a wild (conspiracy) theory, but what if Israel is just an arms-length scape goat for the US?
Because they are the best at spying in the world by far, and are willing to splash the cash. They're what Silicon Valley would have been if it kept doing government contracts instead of just selling ads.
If Mossad is willing to give you a hundred million to make your startup a spyware company, you're obviously going to agree.
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'I'm not racist against blacks, I'm just pointing out crime statistics in certain communities' vibes
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The same reason why many great tech companies originate from Israel. That's why Nvidia is the largest private employer in Israel. Why Apple's CTO is from Israel.
But something tells me that the way you framed your question, is not about the companies and more about you and how you view Israel.
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It was so successful that IronSource, one of those companies, ended up merging with Unity and I think they got like 25% of the company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IronSource
How was I not aware of this. Concerning.
Games are an underrated vector for similar campaigns.
Edit: for the doubters, malware-via-game has already been happening https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/news/2025/07/steam-games-a...
holy cow
That explains a lot. You're basically just fishing for downloads in your target networks. You don't actually care if anyone clicks the ads in the installers, the sole purpose of the adware is to get arbitrary software running alongside the installer, so that you can compromise their machine.
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There's a reason for that. Israel is a test bed to remove freedoms world-wide through digital surveillance.
They've also been a nexus of cyber security: Palo Alto Networks, Checkpoint, Wiz, etc are all Israeli companies.
The Ones Who Sell The Panic Sell The Cure.
Which is surprising that these organizations have trust; like our employers probably wouldn't be comfortable shipping all their code to / embedding agents from cybersecurity firms in Russia
Palo Alto Networks is not an Israeli company. But it has acquired many Israeli companies
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It's the same skill set, many acquire it via the IDF, so unsurprising.
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Palo Alto used booth babes in 2025. I have zero respect for them since that.
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Also affordable generic drugs. YMMV.
That country has long been known as a haven for American pedophiles/criminals who end up fleeing the country.
> a haven for American pedophiles/criminals who end up fleeing the country
Only Jewish pedophiles & criminals. Israel will not let in random non-Jewish criminals to flee prosecution, only those who are provably Jewish are granted citizenship and non-extradition.
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Guess where the company big AI labs are using for security sandbox is from? The one that was involved in both big hacking scandals from "rogue agents" by OpenAI and Anthropic?
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Cite evidence.
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both are working very hard for that renown
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Criticism isn't evidence of persecution. If Israel wants to be criticized less, it should better itself.
HN made a special carve out to the rules it had in place when russia/Ukraine escalated for IP discussions and changed moderating behavior from past conflict discussions.
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Imagine if Iran did this... Or China, or Russia. But hey, it's Israel - all laws, rules, norms and ethics is suddenly suspended - so everything is ok!
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Oh you think this is about Jews? Oh, you sweet summer child.
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You can have peace or Israel, not both.
You may not have been following the news lately (or historically), but Arab countries have been bombing each other over the past 6 months without any involvement of Israel. Not to mention the historical in-killing in Syria and many other such conflicts in the Middle East that have nothing to do with Israel.
Wrong. Israel is the epicenter of all conflicts.
Probably happens with Russia, US, etc as well, but the "hasbara" campaigns through the years have the effect of making people assume the mossad is all powerful etc etc. You inspire fear on your enemies, but also your friends.
edit: and I have been hasbar'd now for simply stating the fact that making people fear you instead of love you has consequences. oh well.