Comment by tavavex
4 days ago
Why do some of the most evil tech companies, especially ones that use exploits and zero-days as part of their business model, disproportionately originate from the same small (population-wise) country? The company from the article, all the other examples everyone here lists, Candiru, NSO... All Israeli.
One factor is that Israel generally refuses to extradite their citizens who are accused of crimes in foreign countries. So they effectively operate with a certain level of legal immunity.
I was only really aware of the many high profile cases of sex offenders exploiting this, I never thought of the cybercrime angle.
The perpetrator of the viral "you're stealing my house," "if I don't steal it someone else would steal it," video was purported to be an alleged sex offender who fled to Israel to escape charges.
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Yes, in general Israeli intelligence and hacking groups tend to enjoy far fewer consequences when they screw up than their Western counterparts, which then allow them to be far more aggressive.
If there is no punishment for shooting school kids with a sniper rifle, there isn't going to be punishment for any lesser evils.
hell and america will send israeli's that commit horrible crimes in us territory back to israel before anyone can actually consider prosecuting them.
It isn't all Israel. North Korea, Russia, and Iran have long been known to be where most cyber crime comes from. Israel is there, but they are an also-ran compared to the others. (but Israel does tend to have more sophisticated attacks). The US also has done a large share, but mostly that is government attacks on other governments (that we know of).
Israel has a lot of enemies that going against them. Which is why they have incentive to be good at this - to attack back. Corporate attempts are just ways to make money.
I'm going to stay out of the political issue of what any actor should do.
But North Korea, Russia, and Iran isn't supported on our tax dollars. In this case we're literally paying another country to infiltrate ourselves.
This is true, but as far as I know, the other countries (except the US, which however is far larger than Israel) keep their cyberwarfare operations mostly internal. There's no public Russian company accessible to any Russian that does what the example companies above do, for instance. It's all government-led. So is the existence of these companies some outcome of the legal or financial system in that country?
> I'm going to stay out of the political issue of what any actor should do.
Thankfully, in many such cases, we can call the skyman to rescue:
https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/689306/jewish...
>Israel has a lot of enemies that going against them.
Why do you think that is?
lol downvotes
antisemitism
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>North Korea, Russia, and Iran
...are also widely considered bad actors. Yet, it isn't "islamophobia" when you criticize Iran or "anti-Orthodox" when you call Russia to account.
Curiously, however, when you similarly criticize the actions of this specific Israeli government and its leaders, you are slandered with the term "antisemite" and there are orgs that exist to doxx you and get you fired from your job.
Isn't that weird?
Their military is very good at cyber-warfare. The gap has narrowed in the last decade, but before that there wasn't even a distant second, maybe Russia. People serve in those units, acquire very useful and specific skills, then start companies that offer commercial variants of cyber-warfare, or become subcontractors for other governments.
They're even better at sextortion. Jeffrey Epstein is the posterchild for their efforts, along with his Mossad agent father-in-law Robert Maxwell, and handler Ehud Barak. It's likely that many of Israel's "triumphs" over the last few decades were less a result of hacking and more a result of blackmail, similar to the FSB/KGB.
Like Monica Lewinsky, for starters?
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Mandatory military service, too. You have to imagine that the US would have a similarly disproportionately-scaled cyber-warfare industry if it also had mandatory military service and good sorting of capable people into those units.
In this book, they explain that it's because this industry is de-regulated:
Pegasus: How a Spy in Your Pocket Threatens the End of Privacy, Dignity, and Democracy by Lauret Richard
Seems pretty straightforward. If you are surrounded by adversaries that vastly outnumber you, you invest in other forms of strength
Its easy to be surrounded by enemies when you keep giving them reasons to hate you.
Palestinians aside, what reasons do neighboring countries have to hate Israel from it's very first moment?
A lot of the immediate neighbors attacked Israel at its birth, and further away countries just seem to hate Israel due to religion/ethnicity/populism (?), countries like Pakistan, Malaysia, etc.
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It isn't really unique to Israel, though. There's conflict practically everywhere where major cultures/religions have drawn up borders, or within the backwash of fading empires (Britain, Ottomans, Soviets, French...).
https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker
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You're right. Never in history and never anywhere else in the world have Jews been persecuted.
My point is that being at war with your neighbor(s) is not a unique situation, but only Israel has acquired such an extreme abuse-through-tech slant because of it. Why?
My guess (not any more informed than anyone else's) is that it's because they absolutely need US support, and intelligence is one of the few things they could offer them so they invested _a lot_ into it
Because those are typically created by ex-military people who had become civilians and now they need to make money with the skills they have.
OK this might be a wild (conspiracy) theory, but what if Israel is just an arms-length scape goat for the US?
Because they are the best at spying in the world by far, and are willing to splash the cash. They're what Silicon Valley would have been if it kept doing government contracts instead of just selling ads.
If Mossad is willing to give you a hundred million to make your startup a spyware company, you're obviously going to agree.
> If Mossad is willing to give you a hundred million to make your startup a spyware company, you're obviously going to agree.
what a sad take.
[dead]
'I'm not racist against blacks, I'm just pointing out crime statistics in certain communities' vibes
If that's your first instinct, then by your standards no country can be criticized for much of anything. After all, pointing out the negative outcomes of a purposefully designed system is the exact same as prejudice based on immutable birth characteristics.
No country's people should be blanket stereotyped. That's my first instinct. 'why are people from xyz nation more likely to be associated with(negative thing)....'. nah, fuck that kind of talk.
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Yes, and?
The same reason why many great tech companies originate from Israel. That's why Nvidia is the largest private employer in Israel. Why Apple's CTO is from Israel.
But something tells me that the way you framed your question, is not about the companies and more about you and how you view Israel.
I in fact tried to word this as neutrally as possible, but people are already seeing ghosts just because it has a hint of negativity towards the country, which should be expected because most people agree that these technologies are not actually good for the world.
> The same reason why many great tech companies originate from Israel. That's why Nvidia is the largest private employer in Israel. Why Apple's CTO is from Israel.
You never said what the reason for that is. Their society doesn't seem more tech-oriented than comparable countries. Their universities are OK, but not the best in the world. So what in their society caused this?
There are answers to these questions but they will put you at odds with those who hold to the other position.
Simply asking the question is going too far for most.
Paul wrestles with this in Romans 9:6.
Careful. The trolls are out. Half of them are trying to prove Israel is a nation full of demonstrably evil people, and half of them will tar you with antisemitism if you don't love Bibi and all his works.
This bullshit polarization of ideology ruins civil discourse. It's possible to condemn Hamas' slaughter of innocents, and condemn Israel's slaughter of innocents. And to still realize there are innocent Palestinians and Israelis who are not working to make things worse.
It’s a mix of culture and army bias.
Culturally, Israel has a strong emphasis on entrepreneurship, coupled with general lack of tolerance for bureaucracy, makes for pretty agile organizations.
In the military side, it creates a country sized funnel that picks the best people and places them together trying to solve problems that would seem impossible. When these people are discharged, they are friends that knows how to work best together. Think of it like a larger and more focused version of an Ivy League school
> The same reason why many great tech companies originate from Israel.
wait - what's the reason, though? i don't understand what you're trying to say.
> That's why Nvidia is the largest private employer in Israel. Why Apple's CTO is from Israel.
you cite two american companies with presence in Israel to defend your claim that "many great tech companies originate from Israel".
> is not about the companies and more about you and how you view Israel
your entire response is predicated on your view of Israel but you haven't explained what your view actually is or what it's based on.